Republicans branching out to old Dem stronghold.

Sofia, i hope for all of our sakes, that you are correct . . .

Watch and learn, Lola.

I've been watching and learning about Bush for a long time now. And I'm not just watching the newspapers. I know this man, and he's a fundy right down to his totsies. And so is Rove. And Tom Hicks with Clear Channel. Shall I go on? Bush believes he sent our children to war in Iraq because God told him to. Armageddon and all that stuff.......... Can you get any further out of it than that?

I waiting and watching to see if Sofia is willing to admit that the Republicans have made an awful mess (to put it generously). The "good" Republicans I know are embarrassed, puzzled, and (though no fans of previous Dem candidates) willing to look around rather than validate Bush more than once. I see nothing of this in Sofia's rather patronizing "watch and learn."

The fact that you think you know Bush is no less freaky to me than the "fact" God told Bush to launch war on Iraq. So, what's the Armageddon reference? Bush is pushing for the end of the world?

I do think from interviews and his own statements and behavior that Ashcroft is a fundamentalist. There's nothing wrong with being a fundy, if you don't try to impose your beliefs on others. I think Ashcroft does take steps to impose those views.

Rove, a fundy? Surely you jest. And, Bush was up front with his religious/spiritual views during the election. He surely didn't hide it.

But, you take the topic away from the main point. The evolution of the GOP doesn't rest with the current administration. It marks an important change that will multiply members, who support the basic tenets of the Republican party. The inclusiveness many of us have been wanting is happening.

I wouldn't think anyone who really championed equal rights would criticise it.

Tartarin--
I saw nothing of merit in Lola's patronizing pre-edit "Dream on".
And, I think the much bigger mess was the Dem's crushing failure in the mid-terms.

there is definitely an element within the right side of the republican platform/party that is homophobic. I dont however see that as mainstream conservative, the problem is that the public vision is dominated by the constant barrage of the relgious right on the media. The constant views of Falwell, Dobson etal being presented on Fox/MSNBC/CNN give them more credence than they have. Having Ashcroft in the spotlight as AG does not help the cause.

The inclusiveness I do want to see. But I don't look for it in this administration. No.

And Sofia, I do know Bush. He's not an intimate friend, but I know him. He's a fundamentalist as is Rove and they were not honest about it in the campagn. You can take my word for it or not. If you don't, I can see why you might not. You don't have to believe me. But the fact that you believe Bush is a moderate or anything less than a fanatic is a testament to Rove's ability to market the man. Rove's got a talent. You have to hand it to him for that.

But just ask yourself this question. How is it that Ashcroft was chosen by Bush as attorney general? Do you suppose Bush didn't know about his fundamentalist and proselytizing inclinations?

Oh, and I apologize for the "dream on" It was rude and unnecessary.

Lola-- Apology accepted, and I recant my Watch and Learn.

Dys-- You are right about Ashcroft putting on a bad face, but fundies deserve gov jobs, as well, IMO. His beliefs are great, as far as I'm concerned--his own business-- but when he acts on them as a matter of public policy, that is BIG trouble. However, if fundies are discriminated against, everyone else better be concerned for themselves. We can't crucify the WASP or fundies, just because it's popular. They are just as human as liberal, black, homosexual Muslims or any other demographic.

I judge Bush to be a moderate, who isn't afraid to speak about his religious beliefs. Personally, I think Presidents should can all talk of their personal religious beliefs in public speeches. If he was a Muslim, I'd feel .... somehow seperated from my President. I know there are many who feel this way, and I wish he'd keep it personal.

I'm pretty sure, no matter what the nuttier conspiracy theory websites say--Bush isn't leading the charge toward Armageddon.

I think the problem is, Sofia, that Bush is wandering off the safe path, looking back and talking over his shoulder--leaving a great danger of stepping over the edge of the Armaggedon cliff. At least, i'd say that this is how charitable liberal thinkers would have it.

Personally, i think that militarily, this administration constitutes a collective idiot. Bush may not be leading us to Armaggedon, but he has definitely saddled the nation with a sorrowful military legacy which will long outlive his presidency, even if he is re-elected. And i think that Ashcroft is busily curtailing all of the civil liberties he can get his hands on, in aid of his religious agenda, whether or not he or anyone else in the administration and the media are willing to admit it.

Sofia- If this proves to be really true, I will personally stand up and cheer.
The problem is I think that the Republican Party has gotten a black eye with Ashcroft, Thompson, and the other extreme fundamentalists. I think that this message is an attempt to bring back the more moderate Republicans who have left the fold because of the extremists. as well as to entice the more moderate Democtats.

OK, the Republicans have given their blessings to gays. Now let's see what happens when an abortion related issue comes up. I wonder what the Republican stand will be on individual liberty then!

I was glad he got the slap-back with his prayer breakfast vs Homosexual awards banquet. I think as he sidles up to these issues, he will meet with reasoned, firm resistance.

But, I do think men and women of all ideological stripes, when they rise to power, forward parts of their own personal agendas. Most of Ashcroft's are not mainstream, or progressive--and I believe the system is solid enough to keep this man in check. He seems to be a capable administrator. Time will tell.

Some of his foibles--Hey, let's drape the statue and hide that nudity --have been downright entertaining. I do see how such a man, in the climate of addressing terrorism re: liberties, could have some concerned. But, so far, has he accomplished any changes that offend you?

And, we are still in Bosnia. Do any of the Bush critics have criticism for that plan? (Keeping us from Iraq War Redux, could the focus be on the Peacekeeping and Exit plans?) Not intended to be a loaded question.

Bush Isn't a fundy you say. Take another look at his religious agenda. he has injected his religious views wherever he has been able to. Just to sight a few Stem cell research, vouchers for parochial school attendance, funds to repair and build religious institutions, cut off foreign funding fund for womens health because they discuss abortion and etc. etc.etc.
If he is not a fundy what is he a liberal?

I definitely see your point, au. However, many people have serious objections to some of these issues that aren't due to religious belief OR not solely based on religious belief.

I am against stem cell research when it necessitates cloning people for parts. I consider my views humane, not religious. I also think children shouldn't be discriminated against if they have a neighborhood parochial school they want to attend. There are success stories, mostly by blacks, who say this has been a wonderful opportunity for their children to get a safer, improved education. Blacks have taken the most advantage of this, and the results look great!

I don't know about the foreign funding you speak of re: they talk about abortion. I just know that Bush openly repudiated the extreme right on a couple of occasions pre-election and a couple after. He doesn't buy into the intolerance. I was very glad to see it.

This thread has gotten me curious about Bush's take on the Log Cabins. I'm going to see what has been said.

http://www.rslevinson.com/gaylesissues/features/collect/election/bl_bushlcrdance.htm
Bush appears to be confused about what is postion is regarding the Log Cabin Republicans

Sofia
Since all of the items on Bush's religious agenda have been hashed and rehashed therefore I wont go into them now. However, I should note that fetal stem cell research, which could be the key to the cure of some of the most heinous diseases know to man was virtually stopped because of that monster in the White House's religious convictions. May he and his be visited by them.
Please note it does not require the cloning of people for parts.

Don't I remember correctly that Bush approved stem cell research, but stopped short of approving cloning to add to the available brain stems?

dys--Yep. The political two-step. He got some OJT with the Log Cabins.
But, the result was good.

"Governor Bush has laid the philosophical groundwork for supporting federal non-discrimination policies and legislation," said Rich Tafel, executive director of Log Cabin Republicans. "By saying that as a general statement, a gay person should be judged in the workplace on merit and never on sexual orientation, he is articulating a core principle at the heart of the gay rights movement. Since one in three gays voted Republican in 1998, Governor Bush clearly recognizes the importance of reaching out to the gay community early in the race."

But in the same interview, Bush stood by his previous comments in opposition to gays being adoptive or foster parents, saying: "I think it's much different than gay adoption. I strongly believe that what's best for children is a married man or a married woman as their parents. That has nothing to do with whether or not I don't respect somebody."

"Many gay people will be very glad to hear his views on employment rights and gay appointments, but there is still a core inconsistency that says gays should have full employment rights but can't be parents in any circumstances," Tafel said. "It is a bit Clintonesque in trying to please all sides rather than laying out a clear and consistent set of principles. That is cause for concern at this point."

"I have no doubt that Governor Bush is a good man," Tafel said. "His latest statements will raise the hopes of many of our people, and many mainstream Republicans. But his father was a good man and Bob Dole was a good man, and they made critical errors in judgment by pandering to the far right against their personal views, and were defeated at the polls."

"A consistent, unwavering belief in fairness and non-discrimination, one without the hollowness of principle in the Clinton-Gore administration, is what we need in the next President of the United States," Tafel said. "Governor Bush is fleshing out his positions on these issues now, but I think it's also important to learn where Al Gore stands on gay adoption, gay foster care and gay marriage. No candidates, Republican or Democrat, can take a pass on these issues in 2000."

--------
The article.

Sofia
Your memory related to stem cell research is quite faulty. The compassionate SOB showed his compassion quite clearly.

Au,
You be faulty.

Bush to allow limited stem cell funding
August 10, 2001 Posted: 12:16 AM EDT (0416 GMT)

Bush says stem cell research involves "great promise, and great peril."


CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- In a much-anticipated decision on what he called a "complex and difficult issue," President Bush on Thursday night said he would allow federal funding of research using existing stem cell lines.

Bush said there are about 60 existing stem cell lines in various research facilities -- cell lines that have already been derived from human embryos.

The president stopped short of allowing federal funding for research using stem cells derived from frozen embryos, about 100,000 of which exist at fertility labs across the country.

"I have made this decision with great care, and I pray that it is the right one," Bush said in a nationally televised address from his ranch here, where he is on a monthlong working vacation.
Bush's speech, Part 2

Bush will allow federal funding for research on 60 lines of embryonic stem cells. These lines of cells have the ability to regenerate themselves indefinitely but not all have been approved by the National Institutes of Health, which sets federal standards for research.

Embryonic stem cells have the potential to turn into any other kind of cell in the body, and have been looked to as possible treatments for Alzheimer's disease and Type I diabetes.

Scientists and advocacy groups view embryonic stem cell research as perhaps the best hope for finding cures for debilitating diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

Other groups, such as anti-abortion activists, consider stem cell research the taking of a human life because embryos must be destroyed to harvest the stem cells.

Some of Bush's closest advisers -- including Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson -- had urged him to allow broader funding of the controversial science.

One compromise that Bush reportedly had been considering would have allowed the funding of research using stem cells from the excess embryos at fertility clinics.

Bush opted not to go that far. He said he would allow funding for research using existing stem cell lines only, "where the decision on life and death has already been made."
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This is one instance in which he went against the extreme right.

SOFIA
Those sixty stem cells were in most cases unavailable and most of them were contaminated with if memory serves me mouse cells. Meanwhile thousands of excess embryos in fertility clinic will be destroyed. This was all done because he and his kind are religious despots. Thankfully this research is being carried on around the world where religion and common sense are not confused. In many ways Bush and the Taliban are very similar.