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Gun Control

 
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 09:06 pm
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Eorl wrote:
Not stop, but definately reduce.

Also from Wiki:

Quote:
David Hemenway's recent book, Private Guns, Public Health,[18] makes the argument in favor of gun control and he provides evidence for the more guns, more gun violence and suicide hypothesis. Rather than compare America to countries with radically different cultures and historical experiences, he focuses on Canada, New Zealand and Australia and concludes that the case for gun control is a strong one based on the relationship he finds between lower crime rates and gun control.

CCWs have proven to be effective & does not inffringe upon my rights


Clearly not effective enough. Yeah, I get it with the whole "rights" thing. But I'll ask again, is the "right" worth the damage? If you really think democracy is impossible without that right, look at countries like Australia or Canada. (I understand Americans are not in the habit of looking to other countries for ways to better their democracy, but isn't possible others may be better in some areas?)
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 10:15 pm
Eorl wrote:

Clearly not effective enough. Yeah, I get it with the whole "rights" thing. But I'll ask again, is the "right" worth the damage? If you really think democracy is impossible without that right, look at countries like Australia or Canada. (I understand Americans are not in the habit of looking to other countries for ways to better their democracy, but isn't possible others may be better in some areas?)


Basic reality, the second ammendment is one of the few political absolutes in America, with even many liberals viewing it as such. Politicians touch it or even act like they're thinking of touching it at their political peril and even the psychotic dem party has dropped the topic, at least for the time being. My own view is that the ammendment is one of the few things I'd be willing to die to protect with no questions asked, the only question for anybody thinking about getting rid of it is, are they willing to die trying to take it away from us. That's about how serious the question is and what any real effort to eliminate the ammendment would quickly come to.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 10:19 pm
If true, I think that is very sad, Gungasnake.

To me, it's just a lot of people dying violent premature deaths every day, for the sake of a principle that is far from critical to democracy or freedom.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 11:06 pm
As I noted above, the bulk of it, possibly as much as 90% is basically a drug problem and not a gun problem. Get rid of the idiotic "war on drugs" and set up rational drug laws, and all but the tiniest bit of gun violence in America would evaporate. The ordinary citizen who owns firearms is not causing any sort of a crime wave in America.

Meanwhile, neither I nor anybody else here is going to want to hear about us giving up our own rights involving firearms because people in places like Baltimore or LA don't know how to act.

In fact, when you really look at it, the one thing which correlates most strongly with urban pathology in America is democrat infestation. I.e. it is precisely the places in which old-fashioned democrat machine politics remains most firmly entrenched in power, where all the grief transpires. That would be places like Atlanta, Detroit, Baltimore, and parts of LA.

In theory at least, once you eliminate 70% of the gun violence by getting rid of the "war on drugs", you might could eliminate the remaining 30% by outlawing and banning the democrat party.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 05:33 am
Quote:
In theory at least, once you eliminate 70% of the gun violence by getting rid of the "war on drugs", you might could eliminate the remaining 30% by outlawing and banning the democrat party.


brilliant
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 06:34 am
snood wrote:
Quote:
In theory at least, once you eliminate 70% of the gun violence by getting rid of the "war on drugs", you might could eliminate the remaining 30% by outlawing and banning the democrat party.


brilliant


Dont get me wrong, crime isnt the ONLY reason somebody might want to ban the demokkkrat party, treason would be a factor in justifying something like that as well. Id have pretty much banned the party after all demokkkrat senators violated their oaths of office by voting to keep an obvious psychopath in the whitehouse in 1999.

As for demokkkrat-infested areas and regions which top the national crime stats, the prize of them all has to be Baltimore. Of all the places I normally ever go, Baltimore is the onewhere somebody might really want to be carrying a pistol just on general principles. They say 90 out of 100 people in Baltimroe are heroin addicts and the other 15 are crack addicts.

I mean, nothing I normally see in DC or NY really scares me, at least during daylight, and the most messed-up people I ever see in DC or NY at least look like they came from this planet. I cant really say the same thing about Baltimore, and its not totally a racial thing, I see white people who look like something from a 1950s zombie movie walking around in Baltimoe as well. The place is clearly some sort of a Petrie dish for the grand experiment of demokkkrat machine control over a long period of time, and the patient has clearly suffered.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 02:14 pm
more broadminded and profound observations...

"it's not totally racial" demokkkrat experiment"

wotta maroon
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 02:47 pm
gungasnake wrote:
snood wrote:
Quote:
In theory at least, once you eliminate 70% of the gun violence by getting rid of the "war on drugs", you might could eliminate the remaining 30% by outlawing and banning the democrat party.


brilliant


Dont get me wrong, crime isnt the ONLY reason somebody might want to ban the demokkkrat party, treason would be a factor in justifying something like that as well. Id have pretty much banned the party after all demokkkrat senators violated their oaths of office by voting to keep an obvious psychopath in the whitehouse in 1999.

As for demokkkrat-infested areas and regions which top the national crime stats, the prize of them all has to be Baltimore. Of all the places I normally ever go, Baltimore is the onewhere somebody might really want to be carrying a pistol just on general principles. They say 90 out of 100 people in Baltimroe are heroin addicts and the other 15 are crack addicts.

I mean, nothing I normally see in DC or NY really scares me, at least during daylight, and the most messed-up people I ever see in DC or NY at least look like they came from this planet. I cant really say the same thing about Baltimore, and its not totally a racial thing, I see white people who look like something from a 1950s zombie movie walking around in Baltimoe as well. The place is clearly some sort of a Petrie dish for the grand experiment of demokkkrat machine control over a long period of time, and the patient has clearly suffered.

Excellent post. I believe that the dems are the only party that have a kkk member (some say former member, i doubt that) in their ranks, right?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 03:56 pm
Idiocy knows no ideology.


Anybody ever wonder why certain topics all but invariably devolve into peurile partisan rantfests?
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 05:52 pm
Aw come down off your high horse, timber. You get involved in partisan back-and-forths, too.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 06:51 pm
There's a big difference between presenting a point of view and engaging in a rabidly partisan slanging match ... the issue is far less what is said than how it is said.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 07:21 pm
C'mon, Timber - just because your slinging is more erudite doesn't make it any less partisan slinging.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 09:59 pm
Partisanship is not the issue, snood.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 10:05 pm
repost...in the interests of topic focus.

At this point, it's worth pointing back to the statistics. 11.3 deaths per hundred thousand in the USA vs 0.27 deaths per hundred thousand in AUS.

Regardless of your "right" to carry guns, you are paying a high price.

IF it was proven that gun control drastically reduced homicide, suicide and accidental death rates...would you support it?

Timberlandko, I saw a few chapters of "The Joy of Guns" in your posts but I'm not sure I saw anything to justify the price you pay for keeping them (namely 11.3).
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 10:41 pm
Eorl wrote:


Timberlandko, I saw a few chapters of "The Joy of Guns" in your posts but I'm not sure I saw anything to justify the price you pay for keeping them (namely 11.3).

Fair enough. Here's another from the Wayback Machine - mebbe its more what you're looking for:

[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=627209#627209]timber[/url] wrote:
... I think there should be three simple gun laws:
1) Be found in possession of a firearm without a firearm owner's license, certifying one at least knows how to handle firearms safely and responsibly, lose the firearm ... and the right to obtain the license to possess a firearm for a long time.

2) Be found to be in possession of a firearm while in the act of committing any violent or other serious crime, go to jail for a long time.

3) Display, discharge, or otherwise employ a firearm as adjunct to the commission of a crime, go to jail for life.


I do enjoy firearms, Eorl - RESPONSIBLY - and I don't for a minute contend the briar-patch tangle of US gun laws is anything but an inexcusably pathetic institutionalization of assured failure. Compare Swiss gun ownership/gun law/gun crime with US gun ownership/gun law/gun crime. For that matter, make the same comparison between Washington DC and the adjoinining city of Arlington, Va. Guns aren't the problem here, its stupid, counterproductive gun laws and incompent, irresponsible gun owners. In regard to gun law, my views aren't far from snood's; I think it ridiculous one need demonstrate functional knowledge of requirements and reasonable operating competence to legally operate a motor vehicle on public roadways or to conduct many businesses, but one may obtain a firearm pretty much by meeting the sole requirement that one be not a convicted felon or lawfully declared mental deficient. That is simply absurd.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 10:47 pm
Eorl wrote:


Regardless of your "right" to carry guns, you are paying a high price.

IF it was proven that gun control drastically reduced homicide, suicide and accidental death rates...would you support it?


The answer is no. We view the handful of gun deaths as a price worth paying. But the hell of it is that such is clearly not the case and that private ownership of firearms in America demonstrably saves more lives than it costs, and real studies bear this out. One source of such information would be this:


http://www.jpfo.org
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 10:53 pm
timberlandko wrote:
In regard to gun law, my views aren't far from snood's; I think it ridiculous one need demonstrate functional knowledge of requirements and reasonable operating competence to legally operate a motor vehicle on public roadways or to conduct many businesses, but one may obtain a firearm pretty much by meeting the sole requirement that one be not a convicted felon or lawfully declared mental deficient. That is simply absurd.


Problem is, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and all the rest of those "dead white men" are on record to the effect that the most major reason for the second ammendment is for the people to have some sort of a final bulwark against the possibility of a government going totally out of control and becoming tyranical. Having the government able to license firearm ownership is not compatible with that goal and objective. It's more like having the fox or the wolf able to license the operation of henhouses.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 11:08 pm
I understand, where you're coming from with that, gunga, and almost kinda-sorta sympathize with the position, at least idealistically - but, pragmatically, the advent of airpower, crew-served automatic weapons, indirect fire artillery, and armored fighting vehicles pretty much moots the "Original Framers' Point of View" 2nd Amendment argument. Unless, of course, airpower, crew-served automatic weapons, indirect fire artillery, and armored fighting vehicles be made publically available.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 11:45 pm
You can't LIVE in a tank. The calculus of it seems to go like this. If ten or twenty people take up arms against the government and the other 300 million minus the ten or twenty don't see what the fuss is about and go on about their business, the tanks and airpower will prevail. If the government REALLY, REALLY messes up and 50 million people take up the gun, then the guys in uniform are not going to be enough to save the government no matter how many tanks they might have.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 05:57 am


-Edward Abbey, "The Right to Arms", 1979

On the other hand, the thought of Lonestar or Shiksa or Om Sig David to carry concealed is very scary to me.
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