Dartagnan wrote:LoneStarMadam wrote:ebrown_p wrote:They are going to Swift-Boat McCain?
Wow.
If McCain were to get the R nomination, you haven't seen any
swift boating like the Dem nominee will do to him, & like Kerry, most, if not all will be true.
Bush didn't do it to Kerry; he let others do the foul deed for him...
Did i say that Bush did anything to McCain? Whoever the Dem nominee is will probably not
do it to McCain either, (if Mccain is the nominee) his/her minions will take care of that.
Author: Dr. Seuss
You're a mean one, Mrs. Grinch.
You really are a heel.
You're as cuddly as a cactus,
You're as charming as an eel.
Mrs. Grinch.
You're a bad banana
With a greasy black peel.
You're a monster, Mrs. Grinch.
Your heart's an empty hole.
Your brain is full of spiders,
You've got garlic in your soul.
Mr. Grinch.
I wouldn't touch you, with a
thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole.
You're a vile one, Mrs. Grinch.
You have termites in your smile.
You have all the tender sweetness
Of a seasick crocodile.
Mr. Grinch.
Given the choice between the two of you
I'd take the seasick crockodile.
You're a foul one, Mrs. Grinch.
You're a nasty, wasty skunk.
Your heart is full of unwashed socks
Your soul is full of gunk.
Mr. Grinch.
The three words that best describe you,
are, and I quote: "Stink. Stank. Stunk."
You're a rotter, Mrs. Grinch.
You're the king of sinful sots.
Your heart's a dead tomato splot
With moldy purple spots,
Mr. Grinch.
Your soul is an apalling dump heap overflowing
with the most disgraceful assortment of deplorable
rubbish imaginable,
Mangled up in tangled up knots.
You nauseate me, Mrs. Grinch.
With a nauseaus super-naus.
You're a crooked jerky jockey
And you drive a crooked horse.
Mr. Grinch.
You're a three decker saurkraut and toadstool
sandwich
With arsenic sauce.
ebrown_p wrote:I counting on the Republicans do so damage McCain in the primary that, assuming he staggers accross the finish line with the nomination, McCain will be weakened enough that the Democratic candidate (who well may be Edwards) will not even have to go there.
Seriously I don't think the Democrats will be attacking McCains distinguished military service to his country. In past campaigns I believe only the Republicans have stooped so low as to attack McCains service..
We know that a party that tried the forged document ploy on Bush would never hesitate to try anything if they thought it would work. Both parties will use things that they believe are true chinks in the armor of their opponents. McCain has an image of hero status, so anyone that attacks that image better be sure the facts are on their side to prove otherwise in order to use that angle successfully, and of course the Democrats have few military heros at the top of their party at this point, plus the Democratic Party is not viewed as pro military or strong defense, so it would be a pretty weak issue to run on.
The Swift Boat people made a difference by simply pointing out the obvious about John Kerry. Attacks only work when there are credible issues, otherwise they usually backfire, except the mainstream press can also influence how well things work by either reinforcing or detracting from the charges that are made.
okie wrote:and of course the Democrats have few military heros at the top of their party at this point
Wanna do a comparison of how many military heros ran in the elections for the Dems and the Reps, respectively, these last elections? How many war heroes are there in the Bush admin again?
Re: McCain 08?
nimh wrote:xingu wrote:Ronald Kessler's excellent piece on Senator John McCain's erratic and explosive temper is 100% dead on target. As someone who has known McCain for 32 years, I can unequivocally state that he should be nowhere near the Oval Office.
His behavior through the years tells us all we need to know: he is a spoiled brat-turned adult who demeans people who dare to disagree with him; he has an explosive temper that can erupt on a nanosecond's notice; he might tell you something one day and then deny it the next; he is a political chameleon
I stopped reading after this. Character assassination is I think what its called.
Why's anyone read stuff like this? You really expect any insightful, reliable information after an opening like that?
The point here is it was written by a conservative in a conservative website. If this was a liberl piece I would blow it off but coming from a conservative it made me wonder. I have read in the past that McCain was the darling of the neocons in 2000. But Bush defeated him so they swarmed around Bush and bought him into their fold. Some say Bush was a neocon convert before the primaries.
Anyway if the conservatives are trashing McCain than who do they like or expect to get the nomination in 2008?
Here's how the polls have it for both parties.
Quote:NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). Dec. 8-11, 2006. Asked of Republicans, and non-Republicans who said they would vote in a Republican presidential primary (from a total sample of 1,006 adults nationwide).
"Let me mention some people who might seek the Republican nomination for president in 2008. If the next Republican primary for president were being held today, for which one of the following candidates would you vote?" If unsure: "Well, which way do you lean?"
%
Rudy Giuliani 34
John McCain 29
Newt Gingrich 10
Mitt Romney 8
Sam Brownback 2
Mike Huckabee 2
George Pataki 1
Tommy Thompson 1
Other (vol.) 2
None (vol.) 3
Unsure 8
Quote:NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). Dec. 8-11, 2006. Asked of Democrats, and non-Democrats who said they would vote in a Democratic presidential primary (from a total sample of 1,006 adults nationwide).
"Let me mention some people who might seek the Democratic nomination for president in 2008. If the next Democratic primary for president were being held today, for which one of the following candidates would you vote?" If unsure: "Well, which way do you lean?"
%
Hillary Clinton 37
Barack Obama 18
John Edwards 14
John Kerry 11
Joe Biden 4
Evan Bayh 3
Bill Richardson 2
Tom Vilsack -
Other (vol.) 3
None (vol.) 3
Unsure 5
http://www.pollingreport.com/2008.htm
nimh wrote:okie wrote:and of course the Democrats have few military heros at the top of their party at this point
Wanna do a comparison of how many military heros ran in the elections for the Dems and the Reps, respectively, these last elections? How many war heroes are there in the Bush admin again?
What is a hero? That word is tossed around pretty loose & fast, I'd like someone to explain what a hero is.
Madam President... get used to it.... try it out... roll it off the tongue a few times... buck up you candy asses... we're living through an amazing time in history....woman president.... decline and fall of the American empire.....we'll have civil war here by 2020 I predict... might as well observe......
Americans are far too lazy to participate in a civil war.
We've been in one since GWB was elected the first time...it's just faught online in forums instead of in the streets away from cushy surroundings.
The laziness theory does apply.
LoneStarMadam wrote:nimh wrote:okie wrote:and of course the Democrats have few military heros at the top of their party at this point
Wanna do a comparison of how many military heros ran in the elections for the Dems and the Reps, respectively, these last elections? How many war heroes are there in the Bush admin again?
What is a hero? That word is tossed around pretty loose & fast, I'd like someone to explain what a hero is.
I'll leave this one to Okie to explain, he was the one who tossed it around first -- and I'm definitely as curious as you to hear about all those "war heroes" among current prominent Republicans..
LoneStarMadam wrote:nimh wrote:okie wrote:and of course the Democrats have few military heros at the top of their party at this point
Wanna do a comparison of how many military heros ran in the elections for the Dems and the Reps, respectively, these last elections? How many war heroes are there in the Bush admin again?
What is a hero? That word is tossed around pretty loose & fast, I'd like someone to explain what a hero is.
Hero is a word that is overused, and I probably should not have used it, but the meaning intended here is anyone that served honorably in our armed forces to defend this country.
Re: McCain 08?
xingu wrote:The point here is it was written by a conservative in a conservative website. If this was a liberl piece I would blow it off but coming from a conservative it made me wonder.
Well, of course, there's many conservatives who still hate McCain. Theyve never forgiven him for his 2000 run, where he assertively defined himself as a challenge-the-establishment, independent-minded maverick, and in particular lambasted the religious-conservative right. He's backpeddled on a lot of both, but elephants have long memories ;-).
Plus, before he started backpeddling and kiss-and-making up with conservative figureheads, he did rack up a track record of opposing Bush on large and small issues of conscience, from the US using torture to the rhetorics in some election campaigns - dissenting often right on the red meat stuff that strident conservatiives attach importance to. Many havent forgiven that either.
I dont know about neocons and McCain in 2000. I know the Republican party establishment was against him, and for Bush, from the start; and that the religious right was even more fiercely against him, and for Bush. The only reason that at least some in the establishment group are coming round to McCain now is that they just dont
have much of an alternative - and he has gone out of his way to reassure them about being prepared to toe the line, recently. But for most of the religious right he is still more than one bridge too far.
xingu wrote:Anyway if the conservatives are trashing McCain than who do they like or expect to get the nomination in 2008?
That, of course, is the million dollar question. Back in March this year, already, I made it my opening question in the thread
A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans:
Quote:[..] The names mentioned so far again and again are Giuliani and McCain [..]. Pretty much every single opinion poll have McCain and, to a lesser extent, Giuliani whooping Hillary's ass. [..] Question is: does either of them actually have a good chance of getting through the Republican primaries, first? [..]
Both candidates, once in power, could significantly shake up the political orientation that the party's shifted to since Bush Sr - or at the very least disarm much of the political clout that the religious right and the Gingrich-conservatives have so stubbornly built. I cant imagine they'll just roll over at the prospect.
If there is no credible counter-candidate, either would win, I suppose, especially if their poll numbers remain so good - much like Kerry got through because so many Democrats (misguidedly) held their nose and voted for him as the 'electable' alternative. But one would expect that either the religious conservatives, or the Bush2000 power-conservatives (no campaign reform or all too harsh a corruption clampdown please), would actively seek to groom an alternative, a candidate of their own to preserve the status quo within the party. Perhaps together.
But the question there is, who? Condoleezza Rice would be a bold move, but the problem is that she seems to have no interest in the race whatsoever, and that she doesnt actually cut all too good a figure in the polls against Hillary. Moreover, if the poll numbers for Bush and his admin keep falling, then the political capital of loyalists from within the admin will sink too.
What alternative, though? Does anyone take Bill Frist seriously as a candidate? What about Gingrich himself, I understood he considers running too, but he's hardly the most mediagenic of politicians...
So what will happen? Do you think McCain or Giuliani would make it through the primaries? Do you think the rightwing of the Republicans will recruit and mobilise around one or two alternative candidates? Would McCain or Giuliani still make it then? And who could those alternative candidate(s) be?
In the beginning, George Allen was the most talked-about great white hope of the Republican conservatives. But he was thrown out of the race by his humiliating election defeat. Bill Frist went out of his way to court the conservatives, but he's dropped out a while already.
Right now, some appear to have invested their loyalty in Gingrich or the ultra-religious Brownback. But neither seems to have much chance of winning the primaries. More realistic souls have therefore shifted their attention to Mitt Romney. But he does have an assertively pro-gay rights record in his political past. So, the question appears to still be open.
Prominent Democrats
* Jim Webb, Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate from Virginia -- rifle platoon and company commander with the Fifth Marine Regiment in the An Hoa Basin west of Danang; was awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts. (1)
* Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990. (1)
* Representative Richard Gephardt, former House Minority Leader - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)
* Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)
* Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)
* Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service
* Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)
* Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)
* Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)
* Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)
* Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)
* Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)
* Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)
* Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)
* Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)
* Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)
* Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)
* Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)
* Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)
* Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)
* Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57
* Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - lengthy military career.
Prominent Republicans
* Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
* House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
* Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
* Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
* Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
* George Felix Allen, Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve. (1)
* Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.
* Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
* GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
* VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
* Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State
* Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)
dys for Christ sake ( if you even believed in Christ) stop listing irrefutable facts.... are you trying to establish reasonable perspective and somehow stave off the apocalyse??? WTF are you thinking?????
It's a cute, but generally pointless list Dys has found on the internet. Is it suppose to signify anything more then some kind of idiotic bias?
Oooh! Look! Some Dems have been in the military and some Reps haven't! Boogie, boogie boogie!
okie wrote:LoneStarMadam wrote:nimh wrote:okie wrote:and of course the Democrats have few military heros at the top of their party at this point
Wanna do a comparison of how many military heros ran in the elections for the Dems and the Reps, respectively, these last elections? How many war heroes are there in the Bush admin again?
What is a hero? That word is tossed around pretty loose & fast, I'd like someone to explain what a hero is.
Hero is a word that is overused, and I probably should not have used it, but the meaning intended here is anyone that served honorably in our armed forces to defend this country.
When you use
heros I believe that you know what it means, when some use that term they're speaking to dregs like Murtha & Kerry.
McGentrix wrote:It's a cute, but generally pointless list Dys has found on the internet. Is it suppose to signify anything more then some kind of idiotic bias?
Oooh! Look! Some Dems have been in the military and some Reps haven't! Boogie, boogie boogie!
A cute list? Gosh, wish I'd read it, but, gotta go do important stuff now.
McGentrix and Madam, I see Dyslexias list as a challenge to your side...
Dyslexia has thrown down the Guantlet by saying that the Military service of prominent Democrats is far superior to to the Military service of prominent Republicans.
Rather than whine about how the facts Dyslexia are "biased", you could show how Dyslexias facts are biased by presenting the counter examples. If there are equivalent examples of Republican Military service than another list would be easy to construct.
Dyslexia did omit the distinguished service of Senator McCain... but many question whether he is a real Republican so this is understandable.
But the ball is in your court. Dyslexia has listed the factual service record of a great number of prominent Democrats. I honestly would love to know if there is a matching number of prominent Republicans and it is up to someone on your side to show if this is the case.
So, as the saying goes...
Put up or shut up!
