MARK McGWIRE: In or Out?

I'd vote for Tony Gwynn anytime.

FYI, from the same Hall o' Fame link, my comments added:

2007 Hall of Fame Ballot
Harold Baines
Albert Belle
Dante Bichette
Bert Blyleven
Bobby Bonilla
Scott Brosius
Jay Buhner
Ken Caminiti
Jose Canseco
Dave Concepcion
Eric Davis
Andre Dawson
Tony Fernandez
Steve Garvey
Rich Gossage
Tony Gwynn shoo-in
Orel Hershiser hmmm
Tommy John hmmm for the surgery alone
Wally Joyner
Don Mattingly hmmm
Mark McGwire very big hmm
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Paul O'Neill hmmm
Dave Parker
Jim Rice
Cal Ripken Jr. shoo-in
Bret Saberhagen hmmm
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell
Devon White
Bobby Witt

On numbers, Mac is in. And, let's face it, his actions were not against the rules when he performed them. To borrow a legal term, just under ex post facto alone that should mean that it wouldn't matter re his candidacy, and he'd be ushered in. But not everyone is going to think that way.

What a funky bunch. You've got Belle and Canseco with their own, um, issues, along with Mac.

the so-called "character clause" will prolly hurt Big Mac's chances on the first ballot...

Although he broke a home-run record (and it was on my birthday that September day in '98) I do not believe he (Mark McGwire) has any right to be inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. Here's why: He cheated, there is no way in hell anybody can look at his before and after and then after again (as in after steroid scandals became known and he was called on it)and then say that he did not use something. McGwire started out a stringy little man and then suddenly bulked into a huge man and then his physical size was reduced as eyes began focussing on him. By the time he appeared at the Congressional hearings (what a joke they were) he had gone down 3 suit sizes and looked almost normal.

Now, it could be argued that even though he may well have used steroids, he still had to have a good eye and an ability to hit the ball with such precision. So? Does that give him the right to screw around with the game by being able to exert more force into those hits? And then he lied. He out and out lied! What sort of example does McGwire present to the youth of this country...and in fact to the young people around the globe? He shows that cheating is fine...provided you do not get caught. Tell a lie....it's okay, again, as long as nobody catches you in the lie.

McGwire at one time had promise and could have and I believe would have made it to the Hall of Fame all on his own being and from his natural abilities. What he has done is a disgrace. If Pete Rose is not allowed in, then neither should McGwire be allowed in.



For this round I want to see Goose Gossage in an Mattingly as well. Maybe even Blylven. I don't know if there's ever been a Dutch by birth player inducted in and he could be the first. Besides which he used to play for the Pittsburgh Pirates and other than the Yankees there is no other team more worthy of having former team members added to the Cooperstown roster. Beyond that, this years listing (aside from Dawson and Brosius) doesn't present me with any person I can generate a great deal of support for. (although Hershiser, Fernandez and Trammell would be garner a decent round of applause from me).

He'll get in. And he definitely used steroids, which I think played a huge part in turning his career around after his decline.

However, there's no technical proof he took them, and they weren't testing for them when he played.

Ripken and Gwynn are definitely in. I don't think Hershisher deserves it, and Mattingly was injured too soon.

I think the HOF should be extremely exclusive....they've been letting guys in that are too "on the fence." Just my opinion.

no surprise here --

Rose backs McGwire's bid for Hall
CINCINNATI (AP) -- Pete Rose thinks Mark McGwire should be in baseball's Hall of Fame, and hasn't given up hope that he'll get there someday, too.

Baseball's banished hits king said Tuesday that McGwire, who is on the ballot for the first time, ought to be voted in despite his refusal to discuss steroids. Rose isn't eligible for the ballot because of his lifetime ban for gambling.

Rose made the case for McGwire by noting that baseball didn't crack down on steroids until after the 2002 season, when McGwire had retired.

McGwire hit a then-record 70 homers in 1998, when his race with Sammy Sosa to top Roger Maris' record drew huge crowds and helped the game reshape its image after a labor strife.

"Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, I think they kind of saved the game in (1998) with the home run contest," Rose said. "That home run derby kind of brought baseball back."
(more here)

Tony Gwynn is...to borrow a line from Tina Turner....simply the best.

I'll admit to enjoying the home run race back in 98, it was truly exciting...but cheating is cheating. To me, Roger Marris will always be the real home run champ...that poor, poor man...the way he was treated was just sad.

As far as sluggers are concerned, I'm a Mantle fan...Micky was one bad muther...Bonds is a prick.

I wrote a little about Mark and Micky several months ago, but I have no idea what thread it was in.

( found it )

Yep, that was a bit of random hero worship, or to you guys what might seem to be random.

Either that day, or the day before, I had been working with some fellas that were having the usual...Ruth, McGwire, Bonds, Aaron, etc. discussion...and when I mentioned Micky, they collectively looked at me as if I had tried to bring Minnie Pearl into the "greatest slugger" debate...which made me feel really stupid, and I spoke of Mick no more.

I had to mention him somewhere, and that is the reasoning behind such an odd post...I felt much better after hitting submit.

There's a report on ESPN, over 75% of the writers said they won't vote for him.

Do these idiots realize 1) they didn't test for steroids in that time period, 2) there is no proof he did steroids, and 3) just as high a % of pitchers most likely took steroids?

I'm sure there's quite a few more players than most people realize who have done them. Anyone who doesn't think Clemens has stuck a few needles in his ass is clueless.

Writer submits blank HOF ballot
Gwynn, Ripken not unanimous; McGwire to fall short

NEW YORK (AP) -- Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. will fall short of becoming the first unanimous Hall of Fame picks, and Mark McGwire doesn't figure to be anywhere close to the necessary 75 percent when 2007 voting is released Tuesday.

Paul Ladewski of the Daily Southtown in suburban Chicago wrote in a column Monday that he submitted a blank ballot because of doubts he had over performance-enhancing drugs in baseball.

"At this point, I don't have nearly enough information to make a value judgment of this magnitude. In particular, that concerns any player in the Steroids Era, which I consider to be the 1993-2004 period, give or a take a season," Ladewski wrote.

"This isn't to suggest that Gwynn or Ripken or the majority of the other eligible candidates padded his statistics with performance-enhancers and cheated the game, their predecessors and the fans in the process. ... But tell me, except for the players themselves, who can say what they put into their bodies over the years with any degree of certainty?"

Gwynn and Ripken likely will vie for the highest percentages ever in Hall voting. McGwire, also on the ballot for the first time, probably will draw only one in four votes, according to a November survey of about 20 percent of eligible voters taken by The Associated Press.
(full article here)

And besides, who knows what the players of the old days were doing in order to enhance their stats? I'm sure there are a TON of players in the hall of fame already who did some things that would have gotten them in a lot of f*cking trouble nowadays.

Haven't steroids been around a lot longer than baseball's steroid policy?

I think steroids have been around since the 60's? They're all prescription drugs, they surely vary as when they were introduced. I highly doubt it made it's way into professional sports until the 80's though. Probably wasn't very common until the 90's.

I also think they're too easy on letting people into the hall of fame.

In my opinion, it should be the absolute best of the best.

Jim Rice does not deserve to be in the HOF. He finished under .300, sucked in the field, and didn't "dominate a decade" like some claim. There are too many guys with similar numbers....Andre Dawson's stats are pretty much identical, but to Rice's credit Dawson had a good number more years, but he also had something like 8 gold gloves. Rice would not get my vote.

On mlb.com, there's an article making a claim for Tim Raines. What the f*ck? When the hell did you ever stop to watch a game on tv because Raines was in the lineup? He had a great career, but he wasn't one of the faces of the game.

Bert Blyleven does not deserve to be in. C'mon....the guy won 20 games in a season ONCE.

The ONLY closer I think that should be there is Mariano Rivera. Not Lee Smith, not Eckersley....being one of the first guys in a position doesn't mean sh!t.

I just don't think they should vote guys in because the other choices that year are weak. That's why Rice's chances are supposedly the best next year, because there's no strong candidates. Same for Goose. If they weren't good enough to really stand out among other candidates, they don't belong in the HOF, which should be exclusive.

i agree that their standards are too low -- but what's done is done.

if Rice & Dawson have comprable stats to players that were already voted in, then they also deserve to be in...

I don't think there's many guys in the Hall they're comparing to Rice...his numbers are pretty close to Tony Perez, but Perez was a good defensive player. My point was, Rice/Dawson get in, now you've got a bunch of other players who have numbers pretty close to them.

yeah, it does cheapen the honor somewhat...

new dirt...

Brother says McGwire used steroids
A new book proposal, submitted by the admittedly estranged brother of Mark McGwire, claims the former major league slugger used both steroids and human growth hormone during his career.

In the proposal, first reported Wednesday on Deadspin.com, Jay McGwire alleges that Mark used Deca-Durabolin and that he introduced Mark to performance-enhancing drugs in 1994.

According to the report, Jay McGwire writes in his proposal that his brother "began to use, but in low dosages so he wouldn't lift his way out of baseball. Deca-Durabolin helped with his joint problems and recovery, while growth hormone helped his strength, making him leaner in the process. I became the first person to inject him, like most first-timers he couldn't plunge in the needle himself. Later a girlfriend injected him."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3851381