Set,
It was AU1929 above, not Advocate. However, I think your point is equally valid and well taken in either case.
georgeob1 wrote:au1929 wrote: Fringe groups? How can you call almost all the nations and entities surrounding Israel fringe groups? Yes, they recognize Israel as an entity but not a legal one. And they are still bent on it's destruction.
Odd isn't it that both Jordan and Egypt have concluded peace treaties with Israel and have observed their terms rather scrupulously. That leaves only Syria - a large piece of whose territory Israel still occupies. Your assertion above is simply not true.
George>
Are Iran and Saudia Arabia just fringe players?
au1929 wrote: For those of you who have much to say about Israel maintaining it's Jewish character I would question why there has been not word one about the surrounding nations maintaining their Islamic character. In addition why when the plight of the almost a million Jews who have lived in the surrounding Moslem nations and had to flee or were expelled with no more than the shirts on their backs not one word was heard. All I hear about is the plight of the Palestinians. I should note that most of the Middle Eastern Jews are now Israeli's.
There has in fact been a good deal of reference to Islamist intolerance - though you choose to ignore it. It is simply an obvious fact that the cure for Islamist intolerance and theocracy is not Jewish intolerance and favoritism. The solution for injustice to European Jews cannot be built on a foundation of similar injustice inflicted on Palestinians who did not commit the horrors from which the European Jews were escaping.
Gerorge > Not word one regarding Islamic intolerance or displaced Middle Eastern Jews on this thread even when it was brought up. Does not the treatment of the Mid East Jews have any meaning. They too were displaced. ]
au1929 wrote: In closing one only needs look at the History of the Jews for at least the last thousand years and they should be able to understand why the maintenance and survival of Israel is so important to Jews worldwide.
While I can understand the concern of Jews worldwide, I also recognize that others have similar feelings about their own situations. The Palestinians who were driven out of or fled from their homes in fear in 1948 - and others of their culture - have similar concerns. One has only the experience of his own life, whether he is Jewish or Palestinian.
George> I am sure you know my first priority.
Further, I am not opposed to the survival of Israel with special provisions for the immigration of Jews. What I oppose is the oppression and exploitation of the prior inhabitants of Palestine by Israelis, often with the financial help of Jews worldwide. I oppose it both because it is unjust and because it quite obviously will not be effective in giving the people of Israel, Jew, Moslem or Christian the peace and security they seek. Indeed Israeli actions since 1967 have had the opposite effect.
George. from the lips of that great sage Jimmy Carter the problem is in the occupied territories and not in Israel itself.
Finally I recognize that the United States is being asked to unconditionally support the permanent protection of Israel from the consequences of the injuries it has inflicted on its neighbors. This is a foolish and dangerous policy -- foolish because it insulates the Israelis from the consequences of their own folly and injustice; and dangerous because it threatens our own vital interests.
au1929 wrote: I would also note that despite the event of the Holocaust anti-Semitism and all it's horrors is alive and well. In fact it is thriving.
I suppose this is yet another application of the general purpose escape device of many Zionists, who, absent any effective argument, blandly accuse anyone who takes exception with any part of their plans & policies of 'anti Semitism. This contemptible canard is drug out with depressing frequency by those who have no other defense.[/quote]
Gerorge< That statement was added as an after thought and not intended as you call it an escape device. It is however, a fact that it on the increase or shall I say more open in Europe again. color]
How does my pointing out the state of Israel and its citizens are stealing palistanin land make me an anti semite.
au wrote:For those of you who have much to say about Israel maintaining it's Jewish character I would question why there has been not word one about the surrounding nations maintaining their Islamic character. In addition why when the plight of the almost a million Jews who have lived in the surrounding Moslem nations and had to flee or were expelled with no more than the shirts on their backs not one word was heard. All I hear about is the plight of the Palestinians. I should note that most of the Middle Eastern Jews are now Israeli's.
The wrongheaded and backwards expulsion of the Sephardim and Mizrahim from North Africa and the Middle East was a
reaction to the imposition of the ethnocentric state of Israel in Palestine. Had the state of Israel not been imposed there, there would have been no expulsion of Sephardim and Mizrahim in the Arab countries.
Also, you say "not one word is heard" about the travesty committed against these peoples in those countries. There are various groups committed to addressing the issue of restitution for these peoples and their descendents such as Justice for Jews from Arab countries, Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa (JIMENA), The American Sephardi Federation and many others.
rebel, All of us who mention the simple fact that Jews and Israel are taking Palestinian lands illegally are anti-Semites. One must be pro-Jews and pro-Israel in order to remain untainted by that term.
There are fanatics all over this globe.
Anti-semitic and holocaust 'cards' are priceless...
Vile mush from the wimp
Whatever reputation Jimmy Carter once enjoyed as a former President, Nobel laureate and peace broker has spiraled down the toilet since publication of his book "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid."The book's slanderous title, factual inaccuracies, biased analysis and willingness to excuse terrorism have alienated even Carter's friends, 14 of whom expressed their disgust by quitting the advisory board of the Carter Center in Atlanta. Among those distancing themselves from the cardigan-wearing peanut farmer were his one-time White House aide Stephen Selig and his ambassador to the Bahamas, William Schwartz.
What moved these upstanding Atlantans to treat their pal as a pariah? Carter's vile and inflammatory comparison of Israel to the brutal racism of South Africa. His distortions of historical events. His biased determination that Israel is to blame for the murderous hostility of its neighbors. His loose talk about a "Jewish lobby" that supposedly squelches debate in America. And - worst - his readiness to condone the murder of innocents through suicide bombings and random missile attacks.
Don't believe it? Check page 213, where Saint Jimmy writes that Arabs and Palestinians should "make it clear that they will end the suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism when international laws and the ultimate goals of the Roadmap for Peace are accepted by Israel." In other words, bombings are okay until Israel meets his standards for the Palestinians.
And this drivel sits near the top of the best-seller lists. Carter isn't just annoying anymore. He's dangerous.
Link
Mizuno Man wrote: Whatever reputation Jimmy Carter once enjoyed as a former President, Nobel laureate and peace broker has spiraled down the toilet since publication of his book "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid."
I just wonder when Mizuno Man completed his poll - or what source he's using to come to this conclusion? I would venture to say Mizuno Man's credibility is in the sewer.
Here's a biased opinion from Yahoo news:
By Matthew Bigg
Sun Dec 17, 12:45 AM ET
ATLANTA (Reuters) - A new book by Jimmy Carter in which he compares Israel's treatment of Palestinians to South Africa's Apartheid system has sparked a bitter debate over the former U.S. president's reputation as a peacemaker.
Jewish groups have expressed outrage at the book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid," arguing its comparison of Israel to the racist South African regime could undermine the perception of Israel's legitimacy.
YUP!
Israeli Apartheid: a truth known to all
On one occasion I witnessed such an encounter between a driver and a soldier who was taking down the details before confiscating the vehicle and sending its owner away. 'Why?' I asked the soldier. 'It's an order - this is a Jews-only road,' he replied. I inquired as to where was the sign indicating this fact and instructing non-Jewish drivers not to use it. His answer was nothing short of amazing.
'It is his responsibility to know it, and besides, what do you want us to do, put up a sign and let some antisemitic reporter or journalist take a photo so he that can show the world that Apartheid exists here?'
Over on the right video menu is a video titled 'Caged for protection in Palestine'.
Play it.
You will have to sit through a short commercial to watch it. But it is worth it.
ABC News
Israelis Seen Abusing Caged Palestinians
Jewish settlers harass a Palestinian family in the heart of Hebron.
georgeob1 wrote:Set,
It was AU1929 above, not Advocate. However, I think your point is equally valid and well taken in either case.
I was referring to this post, O'George:
Advocate wrote:As Okie indicated, I would love to have those on this thread who are anti-Israel tell us whether they agree with Ahmadinejad that Israel should be wiped off the map. I can then better understand them.
It appears that Advocate wishes to follow a tortured path in linking criticism of the Israeli administration to a lethal form of anti-semitism which envisions new death camps, or perhaps a thermo-nuclear holocaust. Either way, Advocate has consistently advanced a thesis in these fora with regard to Israel and the middle east which holds that the Israelis can do no wrong, and that criticism of the policies of an Israeli government is tantamount to calling for the extermination of Jews.
Set, That sums it up pretty well, but you understand that there are always nuances to our perception of "holocaust." Jews never get that one wrong.
Chuck Hagel Smacks Lieberman: Questions his competency
link 
blueflame, Your link doesn't work. ;(
rabel you asked
rabel22 wrote:How does my pointing out the state of Israel and its citizens are stealing palistanin land make me an anti semite.
rabel22 wrote
Other than stealing as much palistianan land as they can, what are the principals of Judaism?
My response was.
Congratulation, spoken like a true Anti-Semite. You forgot we control the media, the US government and all the banks.
The question asked and i responded to was why do US Jews generally vote democratic.
Rabel<
Maybe this will help you understand my response. If not I will draw you a picture.
No. It didn't answer my question. Why is my observation that Israel and its government is stealing palestinian land anti semitic? This is just fact as anyone who reads the news can attest to. Please draw me a picture but state facts not garbage.
Last update - 17:57 21/11/2006
Study: 40 percent of settlements were built on Palestinian land
By Yair Sheleg, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and Agencies
A new study conducted by left-wing group Peace Now has found that approximately 40 percent of settlements, including long-standing communities, are built on private Palestinian land and not on state-owned land.
In a press conference held in Jerusalem on Tuesday, the group presented a report asserting that out of a total area of 157,000 dunams used by West Bank settlements and industrial zones, 61,000 dunams (approximately 38 percent) are privately owned by Palestinians.
The report singles out the two largest settlements, both of which have city status. It says that 86.4 percent of Ma'ale Adumim is built on Palestinian land, and 35.1 percent of Ariel.
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The group says that the data presented in the report "demonstrates that the property rights of many Palestinians have been systematically violated in the course of settlement building."
State-owned lands amount to 87,000 dunams (including 2,000 dunams soon to be declared as owned by the state) and just 2,000 dunams are Jewish-owned.
The leaders of Peace Now said at the press conference that the report is a serious indictment of the entire settlement movement.
"Israel has violated even its own norms and laws in the West Bank, through the confiscation of private Palestinian property and the building of settlements upon them," the report says.
According to the group, the data shows that settlers are guilty not only of larceny, by stealing collective assets of the Palestinian people, but also disinherit Palestinian residents from their privately owned property.
Peace Now said it based its findings on the database of the Israel Defense Forces-run Civil Administration in the West Bank. The Civil Administration declined comment on the apparent leak, pending its examination of the report.
The report cites the case of the settlement of Elon Moreh, which was established in 1979 on 700 dunams of land belonging to a village near Nablus, which had been seized by Israel for military purposes.
The order to seize the land was, according to the report, issued by the then-commander of the Israel Defense Forces
in the West Bank, Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, who is now minister for infrastructure.
The Yesha Council of Settlements said in response to the Peace Now report that Israel had halted authorization for
construction on privately owned land in the West Bank after the 1979 court ruling.
