1
   

Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 05:02 pm
To those of you who think that Israel can work with Hamas in reaching peace, please read the following.




Hamas Video:
We will drink the blood of the Jews
Half a month after its electoral victory, a Hamas website presented the parting video messages of two Hamas suicide terrorists. One message was for Jews, whose blood Hamas promises to drink until Jews "leave the Muslim countries," and the second to a mother, as she helps dress her son for battle prior to his suicide terror mission.


"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries."

"In the name of Allah, we will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country... This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs."

"I dedicate this wedding [i.e. death for Allah] to all of those who have chosen Allah as their goal, the Quran as their constitution and the Prophet [Muhammad] as their role model. Jihad is the only way to liberate Palestine - all of Palestine - from the impurity of the Jews...

"My dear mother, you who have cared for me, today I sacrifice my life to be your intercessor [on Judgment Day]. O my love and soul, wipe your tears, don't be saddened. In the name of Allah, I've achieve all that I've aspired. Don't let me see you sad on my wedding day with the Maidens of Paradise. So be happy and not sad, because in the name of Allah, after death is merciful Allah's paradise."

"My dear mother, don't cry over us
We have to seek, my mother, the help of Allah
My dear mother, don't cry over us
We have to seek, my mother, the help of Allah"
[Hamas website, February 12, 2006]

Such words are eerily familiar to a music video that ran on Palestinian Authority Television for years, in which a boy asks his parents to be happy over his sought after death. Two lines from the music video ran,

"My beloved, my mother, dearest to me most
Be joyous over my blood and do not cry for me"

Palestinian Media Watch has noted that on numerous occasions, the final messages of Palestinians that went on suicide missions reflected the messages they had been hearing in the Palestinian Authority media. You can view the music video by clicking here.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 05:31 pm
I certainly don't think that Israel can work safely and productively with any organization that preaches such narrow minded hate.

However, that fact should not be used as the rationalization for systematic injustice inflicted on all the Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank for over 39 years. Indeed the fanaticism of Hamas is in part a reaction to the Israeli injustice which feeds it, and which, in turn, is used by Zionists to rationalize further injustice.

There are more rational voices on both sides of this bitter dispute, which has already lasted far too long. However,on both sides, they are only rarely heard.

Moreover, our unquestioning support for Israel has, in a perverse way, emboldened the most radical elements on both sides by shielding them from the bad effects of their policies in the case of the Israelis, and by providing them an excuse for unreasonable hatred in the case of the Palestinians.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 11:10 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I certainly don't think that Israel can work safely and productively with any organization that preaches such narrow minded hate.

However, that fact should not be used as the rationalization for systematic injustice inflicted on all the Palestinian inhabitants of the West Bank for over 39 years. Indeed the fanaticism of Hamas is in part a reaction to the Israeli injustice which feeds it, and which, in turn, is used by Zionists to rationalize further injustice.

Beginning with the U.N. partitioning of Israel in 1947, (since this can go back much further I'll start here), the history I've read indicates that it was the Arab states that immediately went to war with Israel. It is also my understanding that at the conclusion of each of these wars, Israel got more and more territory as a result of winning each battle. It is also understood that once Israel concluded each battle, Israel would then claim the land, and take the property assets (houses, businesses) as part of the spoils of victory. This is fairly normal, isn't it?
Quote:
There are more rational voices on both sides of this bitter dispute, which has already lasted far too long. However,on both sides, they are only rarely heard.

Moreover, our unquestioning support for Israel has, in a perverse way, emboldened the most radical elements on both sides by shielding them from the bad effects of their policies in the case of the Israelis, and by providing them an excuse for unreasonable hatred in the case of the Palestinians.

The Palestinian Authority has chosen to give Hamas a majority and to elect the leader of Hamas as the replacement for Yassar Arafat.

This comes directly from the Hamas Charter:
Quote:
Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.


Here is Article 1 from the Hamas Charter:

Quote:
Article One

The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.

Hamas' mission statement=Destroy Israel.

The Hamas Charter states that they derive their guidelines from Islam, while declaring that Islam will eliminate Israel. It just doesn't get much clearer than that.

In order for two sides to discuss peace, either Hamas must change their charter or the Palestinian Authority must reject Hamas, and elect a new leader.

Conversely, with respect to Israel, nothing within the Knesset, nor the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel contains any such language.

Lack of U.S. financial support for the present-day Hamas-led Palestinian Authority is being used as a talking point for hatred of the West. It would hardly seem appropriate for the U.S. to be supporting an Authority that includes the destruction of another nation in its charter. Ironically, the Likud party also holds as one of it's beliefs, a position against the establishment of a Palestinian State, and favors Israel's larger 1967 boundaries, which include the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights. Sharon's bold plan to vacate the West Bank and a portion of Gaza, which fits with his Kadima Party philosophy, may not be the answer, but it is a step in the right direction.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2007 12:48 pm
Monte Cargo wrote:
Beginning with the U.N. partitioning of Israel in 1947, (since this can go back much further I'll start here), the history I've read indicates that it was the Arab states that immediately went to war with Israel. It is also my understanding that at the conclusion of each of these wars, Israel got more and more territory as a result of winning each battle. It is also understood that once Israel concluded each battle, Israel would then claim the land, and take the property assets (houses, businesses) as part of the spoils of victory. This is fairly normal, isn't it?


No it is not "fairly normal" as you described it, at least by the standards of recent centuries. There has been lots of conquest in the history of the world, but most of it has included a degree of tolerance for the continued presence and existence of the conquered people and their eventual restoration to full participation in the political life of the new governing structures. This was the case in Ireland and many areas of Europe. The restoration of the full political rights of these affected people (in many cases involving the creation or recreation of new nations) is generally held to be a beneficial process for both the conquered and conquering people, and in keeping with contemporary concepts of basic human rights.

Certainly the consent of the governed is a core element of the political philosophy of the United States. The support of conquest followed by the taking of property, houses and business, as you indicated, and of the subsequent ethnic cleansing of the territory, as you only inferred, is contrary to our most basic political beliefs.

Conquest, followed by such ethnic or religious cleansing is most certainly outside the norms for the modern world. Serbia tried it in Bosnia and Kosovo, and the world rightly intervened. Something more or less like it may be going on in the Southern Sudan and we can see a similar (though less effective) reaction. Apartheidt South Africa tried to create the fiction that the native peoples were not really residents of the Nation, but rather only guest workers from the Bantustands, which as the fiction went, were "independent countries". This policy justly made that government a pariah state in the modern world. Israel's policies with respect to the people of the territories it has conquered in the several wars (most notably the 1967 War which began with a preemptive israeli attack on her neighbors) are hardly different from these examples.

I agree with you that the West is confronted with an increasingly intransigent Islam - a product of some inherent defects in the internal political development of that culture (more or less as Bernard lewis has described it), and augmented by the ill effects of European colonialism (seventy years ago most of the Moslems in the world were ruled- misruled - by European masters, from the Soviet Empire to Britain, France and the Netherlands.). However the cure for that is not more conquest, more ethnic cleansing and more misrule, and the historical evidence to prove this point is more than ample.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 01:24 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Certainly the consent of the governed is a core element of the political philosophy of the United States. The support of conquest followed by the taking of property, houses and business, as you indicated, and of the subsequent ethnic cleansing of the territory, as you only inferred, is contrary to our most basic political beliefs.

Conquest, followed by such ethnic or religious cleansing is most certainly outside the norms for the modern world. Serbia tried it in Bosnia and Kosovo, and the world rightly intervened. Something more or less like it may be going on in the Southern Sudan and we can see a similar (though less effective) reaction. Apartheidt South Africa tried to create the fiction that the native peoples were not really residents of the Nation, but rather only guest workers from the Bantustands, which as the fiction went, were "independent countries". This policy justly made that government a pariah state in the modern world. Israel's policies with respect to the people of the territories it has conquered in the several wars (most notably the 1967 War which began with a preemptive israeli attack on her neighbors) are hardly different from these examples.

I'm not sure whether you're talking about the Palestinians that live inside the 1967 Israeli boundaries or outside. Inside the Israeli bounds, the Palestinians enjoy health care, voting rights in the Knesset, and a lot of privileges that were missing in South Africa. Outside the borders, Israel only has a duty to defend itself.

While it's agreed that the 1967 War was initiated by the Israelis, you're very guilty of disseminating misleading propoganda with audacious omissions of facts, such as Nasser ordering a withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces (UNEF) that were stationed on the Egyptian-Israeli border, which removed the international buffer between Egypt and Israel which had existed since 1957. You also left out the Egyptian blockade of all Israeli goods in and out of the straits of Tiran. You left out the fact that even though President Johnson declared the Gulf of Acaba was an international waterway and that Israel complied with a U.S. request, to hold off on military action, Syria, Egypt and Iraq were mobilizing their forces along the Golan Heights and during the six day war, Jordan fought Israel. Expecting a country to stand for a complete blockade of their goods is a trifle much, in my opinion.

Quote:
I agree with you that the West is confronted with an increasingly intransigent Islam - a product of some inherent defects in the internal political development of that culture (more or less as Bernard lewis has described it), and augmented by the ill effects of European colonialism (seventy years ago most of the Moslems in the world were ruled- misruled - by European masters, from the Soviet Empire to Britain, France and the Netherlands.). However the cure for that is not more conquest, more ethnic cleansing and more misrule, and the historical evidence to prove this point is more than ample.

It all gets back to the simple point that the warring Arab nations and groups deny Israel's basic right to exist. You can chastise Israel and the United States all you like, and argue that Israel's borders are too big, but the Israeli's have no such counterpoint in their belief system about the Arab nations.

Certainly, the continued holding of grudges that stem from ancient government systems that long have been disengaged from the Moslem nations is not particulary useful. Many Muslims still swear jihad against Christians, because of the Crusades of the 4th Century.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 07:24 am
Israel controls Palestinian water resources


Israel controls water resources in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and seeks to take over water reserves in the Golan Heights and southern Lebanon, according to an Arab League report released on Sunday.

The study, carried out by the Arab Water Studies and Water Security Center, concluded that Israel was the main cause of water problems in the Middle East.

It said the average amount of water used by Israel is estimated at about two billion cubic meters, of which 65% comes from the West Bank, Gaza, southern Lebanon and the Syrian Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since 1967.

Israeli water comes from rivers, groundwater, and reservoirs, while Palestinian water comes from rain, wells and springs.

Despite the limited water resources in the Palestinian territories, Israel seized more than 80% of them, the report said.

Moreover, there are 850 million cubic meters of water available in the West Bank and Gaza Strip annually, but the Palestinians do not use more than 120 million cubic meters as the Israeli government divert their water.

The average individual in Israel consumes water seven times more than the Palestinians, the report said, stressing that resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was linked to the water issue.

"Israel takes 500 million cubic meters annually from water reserves in the West Bank, which accounts for approximately one third of Israel's consumption", the study said, adding that the West Bank separation barrier allowed Israel to seize more of Palestinian water resources, as they are now annexed to Israeli boundaries.

The Arab League report, which focused on Israel's control and use of water in Palestine, Israel and Jordan, said that large Israeli water projects always rely on drawing water from Arab sources. "Israel seeks to control most of the water resources in the Golan Heights and southern Lebanon, the last of which was only meters away from the cease-fire line between Syria and Israel."

The study also said that water had always been one of Israel's main motives for military operations. "Israel adopted the scheme to loot a high volume of Arab water in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine, and since the aggression of June-June 1967 Israel is exploiting water in the occupied territories. Water has always been one of the most important motives that drives the strategy of the Israeli military."

Finally, the report called for consolidating Arab efforts to face increasing water challenges and to demand Israel to stop controlling Arab water resources if peace was to be achieved.
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=1/3/2007&Cat=4&Num=004
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 07:43 am
I wonder if Jimmy realizes the second wealthiest family in west Michigan, after the Devos, are jewish philanthropists who have donated more of their own time and money to human causes than Jimmy ever could?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 08:23 am
Quote:
Posted on Tue, Jan. 02, 2007

Commentary

Truth at last, while breaking a U.S. taboo of criticizing Israel

By George Bisharat

Americans owe a debt to former President Jimmy Carter for speaking long hidden but vital truths. His book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid breaks the taboo barring criticism in the United States of Israel's discriminatory treatment of Palestinians. Our government's tacit acceptance of Israel's unfair policies causes global hostility against us.

Israel's friends have attacked Carter, a Nobel laureate who has worked tirelessly for Middle East peace, even raising the specter of anti-Semitism. Genuine anti-Semitism is abhorrent. But exploiting the term to quash legitimate criticism of another system of racial oppression, and to tarnish a principled man, is indefensible. Criticizing Israeli government policies - a staple in Israeli newspapers - is no more anti-Semitic than criticizing the Bush administration is anti-American.

The word apartheid typically evokes images of former South Africa, but it also refers to any institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another. Carter applies the term only to Israel's rule of the occupied Palestinian territories, where it has established more than 200 Jewish-only settlements and a network of roads and other services to support them. These settlements violate international law and the rights of Palestinian property owners. Carter maintains that "greed for land," not racism, fuels Israel's settlement drive. He is only partially right.

Israel is seizing land and water from Palestinians for Jews. Resources are being transferred, under the guns of Israel's military occupation, from one disempowered group - Palestinian Christians and Muslims - to another, preferred group - Jews. That is racism, pure and simple.

Moreover, there is abundant evidence that Israel discriminates against Palestinians elsewhere. The "Israeli Arabs" - about 1.4 million Palestinian Christian and Muslim citizens who live in Israel - vote in elections. But they are a subordinated and marginalized minority. The Star of David on Israel's flag symbolically tells Palestinian citizens: "You do not belong." Israel's Law of Return grants rights of automatic citizenship to Jews anywhere in the world, while those rights are denied to 750,000 Palestinian refugees who were forced or fled in fear from their homes in what became Israel in 1948.

Israel's Basic Law of Human Dignity and Liberty establishes the state as a "Jewish democracy" although 24 percent of the population is non-Jewish. Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, counted 20 laws that explicitly privilege Jews over non-Jews.

The government favors Jews over Palestinians in the allocation of resources. Palestinian children in Israel attend "separate and unequal" schools that receive a fraction of the funding awarded to Jewish schools, according to Human Rights Watch. Many Palestinian villages, some predating the establishment of Israel, are unrecognized by the government, do not appear on maps, and thus receive no running water, electricity, or access roads. Since 1948, scores of new communities have been founded for Jews, but none for Palestinians, causing them severe residential overcrowding.

Anti-Arab bigotry is rarely condemned in Israeli public discourse, in which Palestinians are routinely construed as a "demographic threat." Palestinians in Israel's soccer league have played to chants of "Death to Arabs!" Israeli academic Daniel Bar-Tal studied 124 Israeli school texts, finding that they commonly depicted Arabs as inferior, backward, violent, and immoral. A 2006 survey revealed that two-thirds of Israeli Jews would refuse to live in a building with an Arab, nearly half would not allow a Palestinian in their home, and 40 percent want the government to encourage emigration by Palestinian citizens. Last March, Israeli voters awarded 11 parliamentary seats to the Israel Beitenu Party, which advocates drawing Israel's borders to exclude 500,000 of its current Palestinian citizens.

Some say that Palestinian citizens in Israel enjoy better circumstances than those in surrounding Arab countries. Ironically, white South Africans made identical claims to defend their version of apartheid, as is made clear in books such as Antjie Krog's Country of My Skull.

Americans are awakening to the costs of our unconditional support of Israel. We urgently need frank debate to chart policies that honor our values, advance our interests, and promote a just and lasting peace in the Middle East. It is telling that it took a former president, immune from electoral pressures, to show the way.

The debate should now be extended. Are Israel's founding ideals truly consistent with democracy? Can a state established in a multiethnic milieu be simultaneously "Jewish" and "democratic"? Isn't strife the predictable yield of preserving the dominance of Jews in Israel over a native Palestinian population? Does our unconditional aid merely enable Israel to continue abusing Palestinian rights with impunity, deepening regional hostilities and distancing peace? Isn't it time that Israel lived by rules observed in any democracy - including equal rights for all?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Bisharat ([email protected]) is a professor of law at University of California Hastings College of the Law. He writes frequently on law and politics in the Middle East.


http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/news/opinion/16363618.htm
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 11:55 am
Good articles.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 02:29 pm
Monte Cargo wrote:

I'm not sure whether you're talking about the Palestinians that live inside the 1967 Israeli boundaries or outside. Inside the Israeli bounds, the Palestinians enjoy health care, voting rights in the Knesset, and a lot of privileges that were missing in South Africa. Outside the borders, Israel only has a duty to defend itself.


My primary reference was to the Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza who have lived under Israeli military occupation for almost 40 years and whose lives, property and commerce are still controlled by the Israeli government - and have no political rights whatever with respect to that government. For them the analogy with the Bantustands and travel controls of the former Apartheidt government of South Africa is surely complete.

Palestinians living within Israel's recognized borders are indeed citizens of Israel who can vote and serve in the legislative and administrative organs of its government - as you said. These things they enjoy are their basic human rights, not privileges as you called them. It is also true that their situations with respect to Israeli law and social practice are not at all equal to those of Israel's Jewish residents. They cannot serve in the IDF -and, partly as a result of the system of universal (or nearly so) military service for Jews, this is a necessary entry point for subsequent career and economic success for all Israelis. There are other inequalities as well. Overall I agree that this is a relatively minor problem compared to the situations of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, which is comparable to the worst of such situations existing anywhere in the world today.

Monte Cargo wrote:

While it's agreed that the 1967 War was initiated by the Israelis, you're very guilty of disseminating misleading propoganda with audacious omissions of facts, such as Nasser ordering a withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces (UNEF) that were stationed on the Egyptian-Israeli border, which removed the international buffer between Egypt and Israel which had existed since 1957. You also left out the Egyptian blockade of all Israeli goods in and out of the straits of Tiran. You left out the fact that even though President Johnson declared the Gulf of Acaba was an international waterway and that Israel complied with a U.S. request, to hold off on military action, Syria, Egypt and Iraq were mobilizing their forces along the Golan Heights and during the six day war, Jordan fought Israel. Expecting a country to stand for a complete blockade of their goods is a trifle much, in my opinion.


I believe you are over-reacting. My statement that "Israel preemptively attacked ..." , was accurate and complete. "Preemptive" was the operative word. They preempted obvious Arab preparations for war, and the closure of the Straits of Teran was itself a defensible causus belli (against Egypt only). I agree, I should have added some qualifiers. However to call it propaganda, etc. is a bit much. I reacted much less vociferously when Advocate, in an earlier post asserted, without any qualification, that the Arabs attacked Israel in 1967.

Monte Cargo wrote:

It all gets back to the simple point that the warring Arab nations and groups deny Israel's basic right to exist. You can chastise Israel and the United States all you like, and argue that Israel's borders are too big, but the Israeli's have no such counterpoint in their belief system about the Arab nations.


I believe this is a much overused rationalization that is dragged out whenever reason and wisdom suggest that Israel is acting foolishly and out of short-sighted greed (and very often, harmfully - to both the U.S. and Israel's long-term interests), and occasionally misusing the relationship with the U.S. through the activities of AIPAC and others. In the long run this will continue to undermine Israel's stature in the world, and ultimately the relationship with the United States. One can see the effects already.

In addition, is there any historical basis whatever to suggest that the Palestinians, displaced from homes, property and familiar systems of local governance, would ever wish for anything other than the elimination of the new (and foreign to them) entity that took everything from them? I believe there is an important distinction to be made between the reactions of the local Palestinians directly affected, and those of the other nations of the Moslem world. The latter are acting in response to their own historical disabilities (to which you referred) and to the malevolent effects of European colonialism (mostly British and French). The former are quite human and understandable. The latter are a major problem for the Western World today.

I acknowledge the huge difficulty Israel faces in practically differentiating the two. However, I also believe that, if Israel is not willing to do this, there is little prospect for the long term continuation of the Alliance with America, or indeed its own survival. One way to start is to begin to do justice to its subject peoples.

Moreover Israel's (in my view) narrow-minded and shortsighted policies are siginificantly complicating the resolution of the larger problem with the Moslem world. Just as non-recognition by Arabs is the permanent excuse for the radical zionist elements in Israeli politics, the 'separateness' of the Israeli state, and the injustice it has inflicted on Palestinians is the permanent excuse of backward political elements in the Moslem world. Together these create a very stable but very adverse suituation for the world
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 05:13 pm
The BS in this thread is overwhelming. There are so many false statements condemning Israel that it would take all my time to rebut them. However, I will cover a few.

Israel happily lived within the '67 borders, even though there were hundreds of unprovoked attacks on it, until the '67 war started. It then took the WB as a prize of war. Israel did not start that war. It was started by Egypt, which blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, an act of war.

It is false to say that Israel seized more land, etc., after every war. Most of the land taken by Israel following the '67 war, as a prize of war, was unowned wasteland.

Israel continues to beg for peace, and Olmert practically showered Abbas with kisses when the latter visited Jerusalem recently to seek peace.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 05:37 pm
Advocate wrote:
... Olmert practically showered Abbas with kisses when the latter visited Jerusalem recently to seek peace.
aaah aint that nice? Hang on two grown men kissing in public? There is a sickness at the heart of the middle east and I think I know what it is.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 05:48 pm
Advocate, you are being very selective in both your reporting of historical fact and references to those here who oppose your views.

I certainly didn't say that Israel seized more land after every war - just the 1948 and 1967 wars. The 1956 Suez invasion in which britain, France, and Israel (with some IDF soldiers in French uniforms) seized the Sinai peninsula and the canal didn't net them any territory and neither did the 1973 war.

While it is (almost) literally true that "most of the land seized in the 1967 war was unowned wasteland" , it is simply a fact that most of the so called "unowned wasteland" was in the Sinai Peninsula which was returned to Egypt under the peace agreement - which still stands today. Even Sinai was NOT "unowned" - it was the property of Egypt. The land Israel took and still holds as a "prize of war" in your phrase in the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan is not a waste land at all. Indeed it is densely populated and potentially productive.

Most importantly you have evaded the central question here. That is the strange notion that modern history somehow validates Israel's keeping of land, commerce and property as spoils of warm, but with no responsibility for the rights of the people who inhabit the land. It seems very clear why you have so persistently evaded this central question -- there is no moral, legal, or historical justification for it whatever. It is this and the persistent denial of this basic issue by Israel which has made it increasingly a pariah in the eyes of the modern world.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Jan, 2007 05:49 pm
Quote:


Israel continues to beg for peace, and Olmert practically showered Abbas with kisses when the latter visited Jerusalem recently to seek peace.


Beg for peace, but not actually, say, attempt to create a contiguous, self-supporting Palestine. So they aren't exactly begging, now are they.

I think the word you are looking for is demanding. And it isn't working so well, is it?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 08:46 am
It is pretty hard for Israel to work with the Pals, who never miss an opportunity to murder innocent Israelis. And the thought of working with Hamas is particularly laughable.

Palestinian leader vows to resist U.S. pressure

December 10, 2006
BY ALI AKBAR DAREINI
TEHRAN, Iran -- The Palestinian prime minister vowed that his Hamas-led government will never recognize Israel and will fight for Jerusalem, telling a crowd at an Iranian mosque Friday that he will resist U.S. pressure to moderate.
Ismail Haniyeh's sermon came on the first day of his visit to an increasingly influential ally of the Hamas movement. Iran has given $120 million to the Hamas-led government, which is starved for funds because of a financial blockade by the West.

Hamas officials in Gaza said they expected Iran to pledge more money to Haniyeh, around $30 million a month. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity.

Haniyeh's visit came at a crucial time in efforts to revive the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, which hinges on whether Hamas and its moderate Fatah rival can form a national unity government.

The Fatah party hopes Hamas would be sidelined enough in a new government to allow a resumption of talks.


'The world arrogance'
The United States and other Western countries are pressing Hamas, which took over the Palestinian government after winning January elections, to recognize Israel and renounce violence.
Haniyeh said he would do no such thing, adopting his hosts' label of ''the world arrogance'' to refer to the United States in his sermon Friday at Tehran University.

''The world arrogance and Zionists . . . want us to recognize the usurpation of the Palestinian lands and stop jihad and resistance and accept the agreements reached with the Zionist enemies in the past,'' Haniyeh said.

''We will never recognize the usurper Zionist government and will continue our jihadlike movement until the liberation of Jerusalem.''

An official in Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office, David Baker, said Haniyeh's comments were ''precisely this type of extremist rhetoric that fuels terror and has prevented any chance of progress between Israel and the Palestinians.''

Ahmed Abdel Rahman, an adviser to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, said that if Hamas wants to be part of a unity government, it will need to abide by agreements the PLO has signed. This would imply recognition of Israel.

''I can't criticize him [Haniyeh] when he is talking in the name of Hamas. But if he is speaking as prime minister, he should abide by the national agenda,'' Abdel Rahman said.

In the Gaza Strip, about 6,000 Palestinians turned out for rallies in support of Haniyeh.

Hamas has displayed some flexibility in efforts to push the peace process forward. Haniyeh said he was willing to step down as prime minister in any new government, while Hamas has called a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip.

But talks on forming a new government have stalled, with Hamas refusing to give up the Interior Ministry, which runs the security forces.

AP
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 12:38 pm
Advocate,

You made some rather sweeping charges of "overwhelming BS" on this thread and included two specific allegations about misstatements here, (one of which I can't find anywhere). I have responded directly and accurately.

Now, once again you change the subject or direction of your comments. This seems to happen whenever you are confronted with an incionvenient, but factual and sound argument that refutes your unsuopported claims.

Moreover you continue to evade the issue of the wrongful injustice Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian population of the West Bank since Israel seized the territory in 1967, and, more importantly, the emptiness of your claim that Israeli seizure of land and property, without accepting any responsibility for the people involved is somehow justified by contemporary norms.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 01:31 pm
George, you completely ignore the reasons that Israel creates roadblocks, (previously) bulldozes homes of suicide bombers, kills Pal miltants, and, ocassionally, inadvertently kills innocent Pals. The reasons, as you must know, are a continuation of attacks on innocent Israeli citizens. For instance, suicide bombings, rocketing, gun fire, etc., aimed at Israelis have never stopped, even when there have been truces, etc. Israel has no choice but to retailiate to discourage these attacks. To you, Israel's reactions are injustices. Common sense says otherwise.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 04:25 pm
The suicide attacks etc, from the West Bank didn't start until several years after the occupation began in 1967 - a well-established fact.

The opening aggressive moves were all made by Israel with the ambitious (and foolish) program of settlements on Palestinian property, These were initially billed as "strategic outposts" and centered on the heights overlooking the Jordan valley, but very quickly moving on to a network of interlocked settlements covering most of the West Bank territory and connected by a pattern of limited access roads which, in effect isolated Palestinian towns from the economic activity around them. Gradually escalating controls of movement within the West Bank presented the Palestinians with an unmistakable picture of their future under Israeli rule -- they had none. The evidence is clear that this was the conscious and deliberate policy of the Likud governments of the era, and it was hardly limited by the Labor governments that followed.

Moreover the well-organized and subsidized immigration of Jews (and others) from Russia, many of whom populated these settlements, was an obvious threat to the future of the inhabitants of that land. Israel held them in servitude, hostages to a cynical strategy of "peace" with her neighbors, but in fact in a systematic program to isolate them; deprive them of political rights; and drive them out.

Monte Cargo acknowledged that Israel claimed the land and property of the West Bank as a spoil of war, with no regard to the human rights of its inhabitants. This indeed is an accurate description of a deliberate Israeli policy that was implemented, beginning immediately after the 1967 war. The Intifada that followed several years later should have surprised no one. You, and Israel, merely use it as an excuse for injustice that was planned and implemented long before the violent resistance began.

I agree that it would be very difficult, and dangerous, for Israel to begin now to relax the controls they have imposed on the Palestinians. However the alternative is far worse. There is no peaceful future for either party on the present course, and the awareness that we are being dragged into a morass by ill-conceived and selfish Zionist ambitions is growing among the American population. When Israel loses American support, she will have no friends anywhere, and that sadly and will be a self-inflicted wound. This is a truly sad situation, one involving cruel ironies of historical proportions. However, it is long past time to face the truth of it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 04:35 pm
The only argument i would have with what O'George has written would be to point out that the Israelis have been doing this since 1947, although initially with less policy, although a good deal more ruthlessness. In 1947 and 1948, the population of Gaza City ballooned from 100,000 to more than 600,000 in a period of less than two years.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jan, 2007 05:40 pm
Setanta,

I omitted any connections with the 1947-48 events, precisely because the role and motives of the several players in the game were then so murky, and of the several significant cross-currents that were operating among the players. The issues after 1967 were relatively simple and clear.

During and after WWI the British and the French repeatedly betrayed everyone with an interest in the region; Turks, Arabs, Zionists, and the aspiring nationalist leaders of Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and Iraq - all in pursuit of their colonial ambitions. These betrayals continued through the aftermath of WWII in a well-known series of events that don't much bear repeating here. By then the, perhaps understandable, dark side of Arab resistance, including the role of Mufti Husseini, and the nascent Baath parties, with their attendant Nazi influences was also a factor. I don't believe that, in view of this and the awful situation of European Jews during WWII, one can reasonably fault the motives and actions of the Zionist movement after WWII.

The tragedy began when, for whatever reason, the Zionists determined that the solution to the grievous problem of injustice to European Jews required that similar injustice must be inflicted on the Palestinians : when both sides determined that their only solution was the creation of sectarian states that, by their very nature, would inevitably perpetuate the basic problem. One could, as you have noted, argue that this began in 1948, and was the fault chiefly of the Zionists. However, I believe the latter element is in doubt.

However, for events after 1967, when the problem of the post-war settlement of persecuted European Jews was largely solved, and Israel was triumphant and not seriously challenged, there is no such doubt.
0 Replies
 
 

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