1
   

Carter blames Israel for Mideast conflict

 
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Dec, 2006 10:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
MC, You really don't know what you are talking about. I worked with nukes when I was in the US Air Force back in the fifties. We had strategic locations all around Russia with nukes if they ever struck us. They would have been wiped off from the face of this planet - and they knew that.

They tried to station a nuke base in Cuba, but Kennedy successfully took care of that.

Far be it for me to impeach your qualifications and thank you for your past military service.

You have made my point with more force and punctuation than I could have mastered myself. Russia knew when Reagan was talking, he meant business. He even made a joke..."bombing will start in five minutes".

The part about Kennedy though...looks like a glowing tribute to Kennedy. Actually, if it weren't for Kennedy wimping out in the Bay of Pigs and emboldening Kruschev, we would not have had Russia attempting to set bases up in Cuba.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 12:34 am
It's not a glowing tribute to Kennedy. We were on the verge of a nuke war if Kruschev didn't blink first. Our military was on red alert, and ready to strike if Kruschev didn't back down and remove those bases in Cuba.

What Kennedy did do was wait it out rather than strike first; the best decision he could have made.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 08:35 am
A Religious Problem
Jimmy Carter's book: An Israeli view.

BY MICHAEL B. OREN
Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

Several prominent scholars have taken issue with Jimmy Carter's book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid," cataloguing its historical inaccuracies and lamenting its lack of balance. The journalist Jeffrey Goldberg also critiqued the book's theological purpose, which, he asserted, was to "convince American Evangelicals to reconsider their support for Israel."

Mr. Carter indeed seems to have a religious problem with the Jewish state. His book bewails the fact that Israel is not the reincarnation of ancient Judea but a modern, largely temporal democracy. "I had long taught lessons from the Hebrew Scriptures," he recalls telling Prime Minister Golda Meir during his first tour through the country. "A common historical pattern was that Israel was punished whenever the leaders turned away from devout worship of God. I asked if she was concerned about the secular nature of the Labor government."

He complains about the fact that the kibbutz synagogue he enters is nearly empty on the Sabbath and that the Bibles presented to Israeli soldiers "was one of the few indications of a religious commitment that I observed during our visit." But he also reproves contemporary Israelis for allegedly mistreating the Samaritans--"the same complaint heard by Jesus almost two thousand years earlier"--and for pilfering water from the Jordan River, "where . . . Jesus had been baptized by John the Baptist."

Disturbed by secular Laborites, he is further unnerved by religiously minded Israelis who seek to fulfill the biblical injunction to settle the entire Land of Israel. There are "two Israels," Mr. Carter concludes, one which embodies the "the ancient culture of the Jewish people, defined by the Hebrew Scriptures," and the other in "the occupied Palestinian territories," which refuses to "respect the basic human rights of the citizens."

Whether in its secular and/or observant manifestations, Israel clearly discomfits Mr. Carter, a man who, even as president, considered himself in "full-time Christian service." Yet, in revealing his unease with the idea of Jewish statehood, Mr. Carter sets himself apart from many U.S. presidents before and after him, as well as from nearly 400 years of American Christian thought.

Generations of Christians in this country, representing a variety of dominations, laymen and clergy alike, have embraced the concept of renewed Jewish sovereignty in Palestine. The passion was already evident in 1620, when William Bradford alighted on Plymouth Rock and exclaimed, "Come, let us declare the word of God in Zion." Bradford was a leader of the Puritans, dissenting Protestants who, in their search for an unsullied religion and the strength to resist state oppression, turned to the Old Testament. There, they found a God who spoke directly to his people, who promised to deliver them from bondage and return them to their ancestral homeland. Appropriating this narrative, the Puritans fashioned themselves as the New Jews and America as their New Promised Land. They gave their children Hebrew names--David, Benjamin, Sarah, Rebecca--and called over 1,000 of their towns after Biblical places, including Bethlehem, Bethel and, of course, New Canaan.

Identifying with the Jews, a great many colonists endorsed the notion of restoring Palestine to Jewish control. Elias Boudinot, president of the Continental Congress, predicted that the Jews, "however scattered . . . are to be recovered by the mighty power of God, and restored to their beloved . . . Palestine." John Adams imagined "a hundred thousand Israelites" marching triumphantly into Palestine. "I really wish the Jews in Judea an independent nation," he wrote. During the Revolution, the association between America's struggle for independence and the Jews' struggle for repatriation was illustrated by the proposed Great Seal designed by Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, showing Moses leading the Children of Israel toward the Holy Land.

Restorationism became a major theme in antebellum religious thought and a mainstay of the Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian churches. In his 1844 bestseller, "The Valley of the Vision," New York University Bible scholar George Bush--a forebear of two presidents of the same name--called on the U.S. to devote its economic and military might toward re-creating a Jewish polity in Palestine. But merely envisioning such a state was insufficient for some Americans, who, in the decades before the Civil War, left home to build colonies in Palestine. Each of these settlements had the same goal: to teach the Jews, long disenfranchised from the land, to farm and so enable them to establish a modern agrarian society. In 1863, Abraham Lincoln said that "restoring the Jews to their homeland is a noble dream shared by many Americans," and that the U.S. could work to realize that goal once the Union prevailed.

Nineteenth-century restorationism reached its fullest expression in an 1891 petition submitted by Midwestern magnate William Blackstone to President Benjamin Harrison. The Blackstone Memorial, as it was called, urged the president to convene an international conference to discuss ways of reviving Jewish dominion in Palestine. Among the memorial's 400 signatories were some of America's most preeminent figures, including John D. Rockefeller, J. Pierpont Morgan, Charles Scribner and William McKinley. By the century's turn, those advocating restored Jewish sovereignty in Palestine had begun calling themselves Zionists, though the vast majority of the movement's members remained Christian rather than Jewish. "It seems to me that it is entirely proper to start a Zionist State around Jerusalem," wrote Teddy Roosevelt, "and [that] the Jews be given control of Palestine."

Such sentiments played a crucial role in gaining international recognition for Zionist claims to Palestine during World War I, when the British government sought American approval for designating that area as the Jewish national home. Though his closest counselors warned him against endorsing the move, Woodrow Wilson, the son and grandson of Presbyterian preachers, rejected their advice. "To think that I the son of the manse [parsonage] should be able to help restore the Holy Land to its people," he explained. With Wilson's imprimatur, Britain issued the declaration that became the basis of its League of Nations mandate in Palestine, and as the precursor to the 1947 U.N. Partition Resolution creating the Jewish state.

The question of whether or not to recognize that state fell to Harry S. Truman. Raised in a Baptist household where he learned much of the Bible by heart, Truman had been a member of the pro-Zionist American Christian Palestine Committee and an advocate of the right of Jews--particularly Holocaust survivors--to immigrate to Palestine. He was naturally inclined to acknowledge the nascent state but encountered fervid opposition from the entire foreign policy establishment. If America sided with the Zionists, officials in the State and Defense departments cautioned, the Arabs would cut off oil supplies to the West, undermine America's economy, and expose Europe to Soviet invasion. Hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops would have to be sent to Palestine to save its Jews from massacre.

Truman listened carefully to these warnings and then, at 6:11 on the evening of May 14, he announced that the U.S. would be the first nation to recognize the newly declared State of Israel. While the decision may have stemmed in part from domestic political considerations, it is difficult to conceive that any politician, much less one of Truman's character, would have risked global catastrophe by recognizing a frail and miniscule country. More likely, the dramatic démarche reflected Truman's religious background and his commitment to the restorationist creed. Introduced a few weeks later to an American Jewish delegation as the president who had helped create Israel, Truman took umbrage and snapped, "What you mean 'helped create'? I am Cyrus"--a reference to the Persian king who returned the Jews from exile--"I am Cyrus!"

Since 1948, some administrations (Eisenhower, Bush Sr.) have been less ardent in their attachment to Israel, and others (Kennedy, Nixon) more so. Throughout the last 60 years, though, the U.S. has never wavered in its concern for Israel's survival and its support for the Jewish people's right to statehood. While U.S.-Israel ties are no doubt strengthened by common bonds of democracy and Western culture, religion remains an integral component in that relationship. We know that Lyndon Johnson's Baptist grandfather told him to "take care of the Jews, God's chosen people," and that Bill Clinton's pastor, on his deathbed, made the future president promise never to abandon the Jewish state. We know how faith has impacted the policies of George W. Bush, who is perhaps the most pro-Israel president in history.

In his apparent attempt to make American Christians rethink their affection for Israel, Jimmy Carter is clearly departing from time-honored practice. This has not been the legacy of evangelicals alone, but of many religious denominations in the U.S., and not solely the conviction of Mr. Bush, but of generations of American leaders. In the controversial title of his book, Mr. Carter implicitly denounces Israel for its separatist policies, but, by doing so, he isolates himself from centuries of American tradition.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 12:07 pm
That's an interesting take.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 12:30 pm
MICHAEL B. OREN wrote:
In the controversial title of his book, Mr. Carter implicitly denounces Israel for its separatist policies, but, by doing so, he isolates himself from centuries of American tradition.


America itself has, for the most part, moved away from it's chauvanistic "separatist policies" of segregation and racism, however, cultural shortcomings of a time when the slavery of an entire race of people in the US was the norm. Traditions must constanly be reviewed and reflected upon, and overhauled especially when they lead to the oppression and subjugation of an entire people.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 03:02 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
MICHAEL B. OREN wrote:
In the controversial title of his book, Mr. Carter implicitly denounces Israel for its separatist policies, but, by doing so, he isolates himself from centuries of American tradition.


America itself has, for the most part, moved away from it's chauvanistic "separatist policies" of segregation and racism, however, cultural shortcomings of a time when the slavery of an entire race of people in the US was the norm. Traditions must constanly be reviewed and reflected upon, and overhauled especially when they lead to the oppression and subjugation of an entire people.


Mr. Oren thinks we should bring back the Jim Crow laws? Why not save time and re-institute slavery altogether?

InfraBlue - somehow I don't think that's what this author had in mind, either in his support for apartheid in Palestine or in his reference to "centuries of American tradition". Probably an unfortunate translation from the Hebrew original article.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 03:15 pm
High Seas wrote:
Mr. Oren thinks we should bring back the Jim Crow laws? Why not save time and re-institute slavery altogether?

InfraBlue - somehow I don't think that's what this author had in mind, either in his support for apartheid in Palestine or in his reference to "centuries of American tradition". Probably an unfortunate translation from the Hebrew original article.


He was referring to the religionist tradition of using the Tanakh as inspiration and justification for the arrogation and expropriation of middle North America by the US; and sees the arrogation and expropriation of Palestine by the Zionists as a comparable event, despite the fact that the Zionist cause has largely been a secular nationalist one based more on the nationalist ideology of nineteenth century Europe.

By "tradition" he was also referring to the US' abetment of the Zionists' appropriation of Palestine, specifically citing President Truman's recognition of the state of Israel in 1948, and President Wilson's agreement as regards the Balfour Declaration in 1917.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 06:03 pm
Israel settlement breaks promise to U.S. By RAVI NESSMAN, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Israel has approved a new settlement in the West Bank to house former Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip, officials said Tuesday, breaking a promise to the U.S. to halt home construction in the Palestinian territories.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061226/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians
0 Replies
 
bisca
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 08:23 pm
Anyone who knows the History of the contest between Kennedy and Khruschev where the phony Kennedy said he made Khruschev blink is aware that Kennedy sent his brother, Bobby, to make a secret deal with the Soviets which promised that the US would withdraw its missles from Turkey which aimed at Soviet territory if Khruschev would withdraw the missles from Cuba. Kennedy was almost as corrupt as Bill Clinton.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 09:33 pm
A U.S. invasion of Cuba, had it occurred, could have escalated rapidly to nuclear war, first in Cuba and then globally. The entire world, including Kennedy and Khrushchev and their advisors, feared throughout the crisis that global nuclear war was extremely probable. If nuclear war had occurred, it could have caused hundreds of millions of deaths, and significantly destroyed the U.S., the U.S.S.R., and many other nations as functioning societies.

On October 26, Khrushchev sent a private message to Kennedy indicating that he would be willing to remove the missiles if the U.S. would promise not to invade Cuba. The following day, a more formal message said that Soviet Union would remove its missiles only if the U.S. would remove its Jupiter-class intermediate-range missiles from Turkey. In secret negotiations between Soviet ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin and U.S. attorney general Robert Kennedy (brother of President Kennedy), the U.S. did promise not to invade Cuba in exchange for withdrawal of the Soviet missiles; it did not, however, promise to remove its missiles from Turkey. These missiles were considered largely symbolic by U.S. strategists, and were technically unreliable and obsolete. Additionally, their threat to the U.S.S.R. could have been replaced by deployment of a Poseidon submarine carrying nuclear missiles to the eastern Mediterranean.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 10:50 pm
McGentrix wrote:
A Religious Problem
Jimmy Carter's book: An Israeli view.

BY MICHAEL B. OREN
Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

Several prominent scholars have taken issue with Jimmy Carter's book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid," cataloguing its historical inaccuracies and lamenting its lack of balance. The journalist Jeffrey Goldberg also critiqued the book's theological purpose, which, he asserted, was to "convince American Evangelicals to reconsider their support for Israel."

..
...
In his apparent attempt to make American Christians rethink their affection for Israel, Jimmy Carter is clearly departing from time-honored practice. This has not been the legacy of evangelicals alone, but of many religious denominations in the U.S., and not solely the conviction of Mr. Bush, but of generations of American leaders. In the controversial title of his book, Mr. Carter implicitly denounces Israel for its separatist policies, but, by doing so, he isolates himself from centuries of American tradition.


Very interesting essay. However it is but a thinly disguised attempt to isolate Jimmy Carter from his predecessors and from evangelistic Protestants whom the author evidently believes can be persuaded that Carter has delivered an "unbalanced" description of the situation in the Mideast and has departed in a significant way from the positions of prominent leaders in American lifre including Abraham Lincoln and Woodrow Wilson.

The problem is that the belief that Jews should find a homeland in Palestine does not in itself require that the injustices inflicted on the Palestinian residents of that land by Israel and its Zionist supporters all occur as they have. I have no argument with the continued existence and prosperity of Israel as a homeland for Jews. However I do not believe that this must necessarily require the the state so created should inflict on its non-Jewish residents all the injustices inflicted on the Jewish diaspora by other nations - chiefly European nations. Justice and security for Jews cannot be built on a foundation of injustice and death for Palestinians. While the model of Joshua and Jerico has its Biblical stature, (as does the stoning of adulterers) I do not believe this is an acceptable model for our moral and political behavior in the 21st century.

It is sophistry to imply, as the author has done, that Abraham Lincoln would be a supporter of contemporary Israeli aspirations and policy in the West Bank. It is an artful evasion of the central isssues before us in Israel/Palestine to focus on selected, mostly allegorical phrases by past American leaders, who drew parallels between their settlement in America in the 17th century with the flight of the Jews from Egypt , and use that to imply that this commands or condones similar actions in the Middle east of the 20th and 21st centuries. Some of this stuff isn't all that far removed from the Norse and Ayrian mythology with which the Nazis rationalized their hateful racial/cultural doctrines. This is a harsh comparison, and it may well be offensive to some, but it - sadly - is an accurate one.

Jimmy Carter has been truer to the core values iof his evangelical roots than many of his critics, even from their ranks. The same was often true of Abraham Lincoln and his opponents, and I doubt very much that he would conone the treatment of the Palestinians of the Wrest Bank who have lived without political or civil rights under Israeli military occupation for nearly forty years.

Woodrow Wilson was another matter, a smug, racist, complacent hypocrite and fool -- a vain moralizer, sorely lacking in practical wisdom who was duped at versailles by Lloyd George and Clemenceau and subsequently unable to give political reality to the empty rhetoric with which he unhinged the badly frayed political order in a Europe exhausted in a meaningless war.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 12:08 am
Carter has lost what little credibility and respect that he had.

Further fallout from Carter's new book

by the web




TO: Dr. John Hardman, M.D.
Executive Director
The Carter Center
One Copenhill
453 Freedom Parkway Atlanta, GA 30307

Dear Dr. Hardman,

I am sorry to say that after careful and frankly painful reflection, I have
decided not to participate in your group advising President Carter and The
Carter Center regarding his recent book on the Middle East conflict. During our
telephone conversation on December 11 (perhaps not incidentally my late father's
birthday) I spoke from my heart when I agreed to participate; it is not easy for
me to lose one of my greatest heroes.

In less than a week since then, events have progressed in such a way as to
persuade me that I cannot in good conscience participate in such an effort.

First, President Carter has proved capable of distorting the truth about such
meetings and consultations in public remarks following them. In particular, he
mischaracterized the meeting he had with the executive committee of the Board of
Rabbis of Greater Phoenix, saying he and they had positive interactions and prayed together, when in fact others present stated that
the meeting was highly confrontational and that the prayer was merely a pro
forma closing invocation. (See "Letters," The New York Times, Dec. 15, 2006, p.
A32.) However modest my reputation may be, I will not jeopardize it by
participating in a meeting that might subsequently be so starkly misconstrued.

Second, in television interviews I have seen over the past week, President
Carter has revealed himself to be so rigid and inflexible in his views that he
seems to me no longer capable of dialogue. In an interview with Soledad O'Brien
of CNN he failed to address a single one of the criticisms she quoted from
various experts in a very serious tone of voice, pointing out that she was not
reading the worst of the criticisms; he began laughing inappropriately while she
spoke, and when she asked him how he would respond to the criticisms he stated,
"With laughter." In a number of interviews I have seen and heard him respond to
highly specific questions merely by stating again and again in one form or another,
"My book is completely accurate." This rigidity of thought and complete failure
to engage criticisms from much greater experts than me about his numerous and
serious errors of commission and omission make it clear to me that an attempt by
me to advise him would be pointless and counterproductive.

In addition, his
repeated public insinuations that the Jews control the media and the
Congress- well-worn anti-Semitic slurs that, especially coming from President
Carter, present a clear and present danger to American Jews- are offensive to
me beyond what I can politely say.

Third, I am now carefully rereading parts of this very puzzling and
problematic book, having read it through once quickly. I am not going to point
out again here all the mistakes and misrepresentations pointed out by others (
to take just one example, his flat contradiction of the accounts by President
Clinton and Dennis Ross of events at Camp David at which they were present and he was not)- none of which he has answered--nor explain the
grotesque distortion caused by his almost completely ignoring Jewish history
between ancient times and 1947 (he devotes five lines on page 64 to that
millennial tragic story and mentions the Holocaust twice; his "Historical
Chronology" at the outset contains nothing- nothing- between 1939 and 1947).
However, I will call your attention to a sentence on p. 213 that had not stood
out for me the first time I read it: "It is imperative that the general Arab
community and all significant Palestinian groups make it clear that they will
end the suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism when international laws and
the ultimate goals of the Roadmap for Peace are accepted by Israel."

As someone who has lived his life as a professional reader and writer, I
cannot find any way to read this sentence that does not condone the murder of
Jews until such time as Israel unilaterally follows President Carter's
prescription for peace. This sentence, simply put, makes President Carter an apologist for terrorists and
places my children, along with all Jews everywhere, in greater danger.

I am sure you will now understand why I cannot participate in your group
advising President Carter.

However, if I may, I will share this advice to you: If you want The Carter
Center to survive and thrive independently in the future, you must take prompt
and decisive steps to separate the Center from President Carter's now
irrevocably tarnished legacy. You must make it clear on your web site and in
appropriately circulated press releases that President Carter does not speak for
The Carter Center on the subject of the Middle East conflict or the political
role of the American Jewish community. If you do not do this, then President
Carter's damage to his own effectiveness as a mediator, not to mention to his
reputation and legacy will extend, far more tragically in my view, to The Carter
Center and all its activities.

Meanwhile, in my own private and modest public capacity as a university professor and writer, I will work very hard in
the foreseeable future to help discredit President Carter's biased, intemperate
and inflexible mischaracterizations of the reality of Israel, Palestine,
terrorism, and the American Jewish community. I will urge all my colleagues and
students to do the same. And, most painfully, I will discourage any connection
with The Carter Center until such time as you make perfectly and publicly clear
your independence from President Carter on this tragically difficult set of
questions, which he has chosen so dangerously to distort and oversimplify.

I emphasize that I have been a decades-long supporter of President Carter and
of The Carter Center and have defended him, his legacy, and The Center's work at
every possible opportunity. It is a grave loss for me to acknowledge that this
will no longer be possible.
Sincerely yours,


Melvin Konner, M.D., Ph.D.
Samuel Candler Dobbs Professor
Department of Anthropology and Program in Neuroscience and Behavioral Biology, Emory University
Departments of Psychiatry and Neurology (by courtesy), Emory School of
Medicine
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 12:20 am
georgeob1 wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
A Religious Problem
Jimmy Carter's book: An Israeli view.

BY MICHAEL B. OREN
Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

Several prominent scholars have taken issue with Jimmy Carter's book "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid," cataloguing its historical inaccuracies and lamenting its lack of balance. The journalist Jeffrey Goldberg also critiqued the book's theological purpose, which, he asserted, was to "convince American Evangelicals to reconsider their support for Israel."

..
...
In his apparent attempt to make American Christians rethink their affection for Israel, Jimmy Carter is clearly departing from time-honored practice. This has not been the legacy of evangelicals alone, but of many religious denominations in the U.S., and not solely the conviction of Mr. Bush, but of generations of American leaders. In the controversial title of his book, Mr. Carter implicitly denounces Israel for its separatist policies, but, by doing so, he isolates himself from centuries of American tradition.


Very interesting essay. However it is but a thinly disguised attempt to isolate Jimmy Carter from his predecessors and from evangelistic Protestants whom the author evidently believes can be persuaded that Carter has delivered an "unbalanced" description of the situation in the Mideast and has departed in a significant way from the positions of prominent leaders in American lifre including Abraham Lincoln and Woodrow Wilson.

The problem is that the belief that Jews should find a homeland in Palestine does not in itself require that the injustices inflicted on the Palestinian residents of that land by Israel and its Zionist supporters all occur as they have. I have no argument with the continued existence and prosperity of Israel as a homeland for Jews. However I do not believe that this must necessarily require the the state so created should inflict on its non-Jewish residents all the injustices inflicted on the Jewish diaspora by other nations - chiefly European nations. Justice and security for Jews cannot be built on a foundation of injustice and death for Palestinians. While the model of Joshua and Jerico has its Biblical stature, (as does the stoning of adulterers) I do not believe this is an acceptable model for our moral and political behavior in the 21st century.

It is sophistry to imply, as the author has done, that Abraham Lincoln would be a supporter of contemporary Israeli aspirations and policy in the West Bank. It is an artful evasion of the central isssues before us in Israel/Palestine to focus on selected, mostly allegorical phrases by past American leaders, who drew parallels between their settlement in America in the 17th century with the flight of the Jews from Egypt , and use that to imply that this commands or condones similar actions in the Middle east of the 20th and 21st centuries. Some of this stuff isn't all that far removed from the Norse and Ayrian mythology with which the Nazis rationalized their hateful racial/cultural doctrines. This is a harsh comparison, and it may well be offensive to some, but it - sadly - is an accurate one.

Jimmy Carter has been truer to the core values iof his evangelical roots than many of his critics, even from their ranks. The same was often true of Abraham Lincoln and his opponents, and I doubt very much that he would conone the treatment of the Palestinians of the Wrest Bank who have lived without political or civil rights under Israeli military occupation for nearly forty years.

Woodrow Wilson was another matter, a smug, racist, complacent hypocrite and fool -- a vain moralizer, sorely lacking in practical wisdom who was duped at versailles by Lloyd George and Clemenceau and subsequently unable to give political reality to the empty rhetoric with which he unhinged the badly frayed political order in a Europe exhausted in a meaningless war.

Maybe this would go better if your post were treated one item at a time. You first said that McGentrix posted an "interesting essay". McGentrix posted a newspaper article. An essay is defined by Websters as "a short literary composition on a particular theme or subject, usually in prose and generally analytic, speculative, or interpretative, contrasted with an article, defined as "a written composition in prose, usually nonfiction, on a specific topic, forming an independent part of a book or other publication, as a newspaper or magazine." When the author states that whether the author's reference to Bush is Bush41 or Bush43(Carter's successors, not predecessors by the way, they both inarguably disagree with Carter, so the author is stating cold facts, and is not speculating. Neither is the author speculating when he says Carter's book has drawn a lot of criticism, with many contending not all of what Carter wrote is accurate.

In 1937, a British commission recommended splittling off Palestine between Arabs and Jews, and the Palestinian Arabs wanted no part of that. In 1947 and 1948, Britain ceded the Arab/Israeli partitioning to the U.N. The entire Arab block voted against even recognizing Israel as a state. Out of 43% to the Arab Palestinians and 57% to Israel, the Palestinians through a series of wars with Israel have managed to lose about 80% of their land. You'd think that over the past sixty years, these people might think up something else to do but fight with Israel and lose.

I might also add that it an aggregious stretch to correlate the Nazis with Israel. Israel has never said that the Palestinians must be obliterated, or that the Palestinians don't have the right to their own state. The Palestinians, and other leaders that are sympathetic to the Palestinians say that sort of stuff all of the time. The internet is full of references to Iran, Iraq, older Libya, Syria and Arafat crusing along that line of rhetoric. So what are you talking about, Israel is being like the fascists?

I submit that the result of Carter's spin on the ME situation incites this sort of inappropriately placed lynch-mob mentality. This seems very inflammatory for someone who won the Nobel Peace Prize.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 12:27 am
Advocate wrote:
Carter has lost what little credibility and respect that he had.

Further fallout from Carter's new book

by the web




TO: Dr. John Hardman, M.D.
Executive Director
The Carter Center
One Copenhill
453 Freedom Parkway Atlanta, GA 30307

Dear Dr. Hardman,

I am sorry to say that after careful and frankly painful reflection, I have
decided not to participate in your group advising President Carter and The
Carter Center regarding his recent book on the Middle East conflict. During our
telephone conversation on December 11 (perhaps not incidentally my late father's
birthday) I spoke from my heart when I agreed to participate; it is not easy for
me to lose one of my greatest heroes.

In less than a week since then, events have progressed in such a way as to
persuade me that I cannot in good conscience participate in such an effort.

First, President Carter has proved capable of distorting the truth about such
meetings and consultations in public remarks following them. In particular, he
mischaracterized the meeting he had with the executive committee of the Board of
Rabbis of Greater Phoenix, saying he and they had positive interactions and prayed together, when in fact others present stated that
the meeting was highly confrontational and that the prayer was merely a pro
forma closing invocation. (See "Letters," The New York Times, Dec. 15, 2006, p.
A32.) However modest my reputation may be, I will not jeopardize it by
participating in a meeting that might subsequently be so starkly misconstrued.

Second, in television interviews I have seen over the past week, President
Carter has revealed himself to be so rigid and inflexible in his views that he
seems to me no longer capable of dialogue. In an interview with Soledad O'Brien
of CNN he failed to address a single one of the criticisms she quoted from
various experts in a very serious tone of voice, pointing out that she was not
reading the worst of the criticisms; he began laughing inappropriately while she
spoke, and when she asked him how he would respond to the criticisms he stated,
"With laughter." In a number of interviews I have seen and heard him respond to
highly specific questions merely by stating again and again in one form or another,
"My book is completely accurate." This rigidity of thought and complete failure
to engage criticisms from much greater experts than me about his numerous and
serious errors of commission and omission make it clear to me that an attempt by
me to advise him would be pointless and counterproductive.

In addition, his
repeated public insinuations that the Jews control the media and the
Congress- well-worn anti-Semitic slurs that, especially coming from President
Carter, present a clear and present danger to American Jews- are offensive to
me beyond what I can politely say.

Third, I am now carefully rereading parts of this very puzzling and
problematic book, having read it through once quickly. I am not going to point
out again here all the mistakes and misrepresentations pointed out by others (
to take just one example, his flat contradiction of the accounts by President
Clinton and Dennis Ross of events at Camp David at which they were present and he was not)- none of which he has answered--nor explain the
grotesque distortion caused by his almost completely ignoring Jewish history
between ancient times and 1947 (he devotes five lines on page 64 to that
millennial tragic story and mentions the Holocaust twice; his "Historical
Chronology" at the outset contains nothing- nothing- between 1939 and 1947).
However, I will call your attention to a sentence on p. 213 that had not stood
out for me the first time I read it: "It is imperative that the general Arab
community and all significant Palestinian groups make it clear that they will
end the suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism when international laws and
the ultimate goals of the Roadmap for Peace are accepted by Israel."

As someone who has lived his life as a professional reader and writer, I
cannot find any way to read this sentence that does not condone the murder of
Jews until such time as Israel unilaterally follows President Carter's
prescription for peace. This sentence, simply put, makes President Carter an apologist for terrorists and
places my children, along with all Jews everywhere, in greater danger.

I am sure you will now understand why I cannot participate in your group
advising President Carter.

However, if I may, I will share this advice to you: If you want The Carter
Center to survive and thrive independently in the future, you must take prompt
and decisive steps to separate the Center from President Carter's now
irrevocably tarnished legacy. You must make it clear on your web site and in
appropriately circulated press releases that President Carter does not speak for
The Carter Center on the subject of the Middle East conflict or the political
role of the American Jewish community. If you do not do this, then President
Carter's damage to his own effectiveness as a mediator, not to mention to his
reputation and legacy will extend, far more tragically in my view, to The Carter
Center and all its activities.

Meanwhile, in my own private and modest public capacity as a university professor and writer, I will work very hard in
the foreseeable future to help discredit President Carter's biased, intemperate
and inflexible mischaracterizations of the reality of Israel, Palestine,
terrorism, and the American Jewish community. I will urge all my colleagues and
students to do the same. And, most painfully, I will discourage any connection
with The Carter Center until such time as you make perfectly and publicly clear
your independence from President Carter on this tragically difficult set of
questions, which he has chosen so dangerously to distort and oversimplify.

I emphasize that I have been a decades-long supporter of President Carter and
of The Carter Center and have defended him, his legacy, and The Center's work at
every possible opportunity. It is a grave loss for me to acknowledge that this
will no longer be possible.
Sincerely yours,


Melvin Konner, M.D., Ph.D.
Samuel Candler Dobbs Professor
Department of Anthropology and Program in Neuroscience and Behavioral Biology, Emory University
Departments of Psychiatry and Neurology (by courtesy), Emory School of
Medicine

You have aptly posted a story which couldn't better illustrate how much more Carter is acting like a lunatic out on the fringe, than a person acting within the rarified ether of an ex-president's expected level of decorum.

Carter refused to debate Dershowitz on the grounds that he refused to argue with someone who knows nothing about the Palestinian situation. Gosh, you would think that Carter would expect such an easy win in such a debate if his claims about Dershowitz were true. It might even help Carter sell more books. Carter just refuses to conduct any sort of discourse with anyone who disagrees with him. He's always been very stubborn.

Carter's right that the media run Hollywood and the media. Marlon Brando took heat for making the same claim. Nixon took on the Jewish lobby too, and there's no doubt that there's a very strong Jewish lobby in this country. There is also no doubt that there are Jewish terrorists that exist.

All of that is besides the point, though. The Jews are a shrewd tribe. They are smart, they work hard, stick together, have incredible discipline and vision. The Palestinian tribe are a warring tribe that romanticizes war and poverty as nobel causes. None of the surrounding nations are offering to subsidize or house the Palestinians, and they really are a victocracy (my own word, don't look it up). The Jews incorporated, made deals, worked out productive plans, offered to give something in return for what was given to them. They made friends in the United States and influenced the right people. The Jews made something of their lives in this country and the Jews made something of the land in Israel. The Palestinians danced in the street on the day when 3,000 innocent Americans were killed by Arab terrorists. That's how well the Palestinians make friends and influence people. Can you see why I'm not that thrilled to get all misty-eyed when it comes to the Palestinians? Other Arab nations only defend Palestinians on the periphery because they and the Palestinians have a common enemy in Israel. Jews proved they could make a life in the United States. They adapted to American culture and contributed to American culture. The Arabs don't like our culture. They think we are spoiled, evil, obsessed with sex. Have you seen some of the Arab palaces and the oil magnate's places? They think women should be subordinated to men, should not be able to work or get an education. Men should be free to marry a hundred women if they choose, but women should be killed if they commit adultery. Some Arabs have palaces that could make the Beverly Wilshire Hotel look like a guesthouse. In fact, I think an Arab owns the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, so it really is his guesthouse.

Why should we support a people that loathe us and dance in the streets when our civilians are slaughtered by the thousands? What have the Palestinians done for us lately?
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 08:51 am
Re: BBB
blatham wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
This is a long article, but a must read if you want to see the future if we are not wise:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=88836&highlight=

BBB


Yes, thanks for finding and posting, BBB. I truly hope Ritter has it wrong. Crises, domestic and foreign, that could erupt from a US attack on Iran are more than I can bear thinking about.


Good news Blatham - Scott Ritter's article on that link dates from almost a year and a half ago. With at least 3 civil wars brewing in the region right now, not to mention the thread topic here, plans to attack Iran have been shelved.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 08:59 am
Monte Cargo's (cautiously un-linked) purloined letter can be found on the net on a blog by someone who claims he can't recall where he got it.....
http://moot.typepad.com/what_if/2006/12/habitat_for_ham.html

Truly unimpeachable sourcing there, Monte Cargo, thanks <G>
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 09:13 am
P.S. to Blatham: corrected link for Ritter-Hersh discussion is:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/21/145202


Generally, the discussion on this thread has clarified the meaning of Milton's verses for me:

".......Promise was that I
Should Israel from Philistian yoke deliver;
Ask for this great deliverer now, and find him
Eyeless in Gaza......"


"Samson Agonistes", verses 38 to 41
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 10:28 am
Blueflame continues to condemn Israel for its inadvertent shelling of a beach, which killed some civilians. This shelling was in retaliation for continued militant rocketing of Israel. In fact, Israel has been hit by 50 rockets since the so-called truce in mid-November.

He seems to be ignorant of the Hamas charter, which maintains that all the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean is a sacred Islamic trust. Blue ignores the Hamas insistence that it will never recognize Israel.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 10:44 am
Monte Cargo wrote:
[
...
All of that is besides the point, though. The Jews are a shrewd tribe. They are smart, they work hard, stick together, have incredible discipline and vision. The Palestinian tribe are a warring tribe that romanticizes war and poverty as nobel causes. None of the surrounding nations are offering to subsidize or house the Palestinians, and they really are a victocracy (my own word, don't look it up). The Jews incorporated, made deals, worked out productive plans, offered to give something in return for what was given to them. They made friends in the United States and influenced the right people. The Jews made something of their lives in this country and the Jews made something of the land in Israel. The Palestinians danced in the street on the day when 3,000 innocent Americans were killed by Arab terrorists. That's how well the Palestinians make friends and influence people. Can you see why I'm not that thrilled to get all misty-eyed when it comes to the Palestinians? Other Arab nations only defend Palestinians on the periphery because they and the Palestinians have a common enemy in Israel. Jews proved they could make a life in the United States. They adapted to American culture and contributed to American culture. The Arabs don't like our culture. They think we are spoiled, evil, obsessed with sex. Have you seen some of the Arab palaces and the oil magnate's places? They think women should be subordinated to men, should not be able to work or get an education. Men should be free to marry a hundred women if they choose, but women should be killed if they commit adultery. Some Arabs have palaces that could make the Beverly Wilshire Hotel look like a guesthouse. In fact, I think an Arab owns the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, so it really is his guesthouse.

Why should we support a people that loathe us and dance in the streets when our civilians are slaughtered by the thousands? What have the Palestinians done for us lately?


This is the sort of group slander that has been used by opprressors throughout history to rationalize their repression and exploitation of their victims. Equivalent arguments have been offered by the English to rationalize their oppression of the Irish; racist Americans tio rationalize their exploitation of Blacks; and Nazi Germans to rationalize their persecution and oppression of Poles, Russians, and attemots at extermination of Jews.

It is no less reprehensable when it is used by formerly opprrssed people to rationalize their oppression of yet a new set of victims. Indeed it represents a truly remarkable level of hypocrisy. Critics of Israel have applied the label of racism against Israel. While I do not endorse that, screeds such as this one certainly do invite it.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 10:50 am
Quote:
All of that is besides the point, though. The Jews are a shrewd tribe. They are smart, they work hard, stick together, have incredible discipline and vision. The Palestinian tribe are a warring tribe that romanticizes war and poverty as nobel causes. None of the surrounding nations are offering to subsidize or house the Palestinians, and they really are a victocracy (my own word, don't look it up). The Jews incorporated, made deals, worked out productive plans, offered to give something in return for what was given to them. They made friends in the United States and influenced the right people. The Jews made something of their lives in this country and the Jews made something of the land in Israel. The Palestinians danced in the street on the day when 3,000 innocent Americans were killed by Arab terrorists. That's how well the Palestinians make friends and influence people. Can you see why I'm not that thrilled to get all misty-eyed when it comes to the Palestinians? Other Arab nations only defend Palestinians on the periphery because they and the Palestinians have a common enemy in Israel. Jews proved they could make a life in the United States. They adapted to American culture and contributed to American culture. The Arabs don't like our culture. They think we are spoiled, evil, obsessed with sex. Have you seen some of the Arab palaces and the oil magnate's places? They think women should be subordinated to men, should not be able to work or get an education. Men should be free to marry a hundred women if they choose, but women should be killed if they commit adultery. Some Arabs have palaces that could make the Beverly Wilshire Hotel look like a guesthouse. In fact, I think an Arab owns the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, so it really is his guesthouse.


It's difficult to continue a discussion such as this with individuals with such barefaced bigotry and stereotyping predudice as this.

It's like trying to expouse the merits of desegegation to the KKK.
0 Replies
 
 

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