I am an extreme liberal

okie wrote:

Walter, every time I mention communists and Marxists, it sure gets your attention. So where do I find out how many leftists and liberals that don't admit they are communists and marxists, but actually are?

I don't think very many Americans are, but I think the percentage in political movements, environmental movements, and the like is higher. The reason I believe this is because of the policies they advocate, which may not advocate communism or marxism by name, but which represent steps toward that end of the political spectrum. Some of the people may not even understand what they are advocating by name.

If you think communism and Marxism is dead, take a look at the recent developments in South America. There is never a shortage of people that want to rule it over everybody else in the name of do-goodism. A much milder form than communism and Marxism is liberalism. I am talking about the American brand of liberalism, as I realize the term means something different there in Germany.

abject ignnorance is no excuse for your posts Okie, you are pretty much a simple idiot.

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plainoldme wrote:

First of all, you get what you pay for.

Second, if corporations were even moderately controlled, goods would be less expensive. There would be the sort of program the left wing students of the 60s dreamed of.

Third, if corporations had any conscience at all, goods would be less expensive. There would be the sort of program the left wing students of the 60s dreamed of.

And just what sort of program did the left wing students of the 60's dream of? Please explain thoroughly because if I am a "simple idiot" as Dyslexia claims, it won't be easy for me to understand.

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dyslexia wrote:

abject ignnorance is no excuse for your posts Okie, you are pretty much a simple idiot.

Are you capable of anything more than such as the above, Dys? You started this thread with a grand proclamation about liberalism and what its characteristics are. I presented contrary evidence. Yet, I have yet to hear any debate of this evidence out of you. I would much rather debate the evidence than someone's intelligence or character. At least perhaps this thread can be instructional to fellow liberals that might have a shred of honesty to see how some of their own "ilk" conducts themselves on this board, and perhaps it can help them see the light?

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okie wrote:

Walter, every time I mention communists and Marxists, it sure gets your attention. So where do I find out how many leftists and liberals that don't admit they are communists and marxists, but actually are?

One idea would be to look at the various party programs. And how the party members actually really act in everyday politics.
And even the French communists (as the largest communist party here) are more socialists than communists.
I don't know if there are any Marxists with some influence at all.

okie wrote:

If you think communism and Marxism is dead,

No, I don't

okie wrote:

A much milder form than communism and Marxism is liberalism. I am talking about the American brand of liberalism, as I realize the term means something different there in Germany.

The "American brand of liberalism" is what the conservative party in Germany (Christian Democratic Union/Christian Social Union) would be as equivalent - well, in most of their political ideas at least.[/QUOTE]

'Liberalism' isn't only in Germany different to that in USA but worldwide (see: World Federation of Liberalism

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okie wrote:

dyslexia wrote:
abject ignnorance is no excuse for your posts Okie, you are pretty much a simple idiot.

Are you capable of anything more than such as the above, Dys? You started this thread with a grand proclamation about liberalism and what its characteristics are. I presented contrary evidence. Yet, I have yet to hear any debate of this evidence out of you. I would much rather debate the evidence than someone's intelligence or character. At least perhaps this thread can be instructional to fellow liberals that might have a shred of honesty to see how some of their own "ilk" conducts themselves on this board, and perhaps it can help them see the light?

attempting debate with you would be akin to putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

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Heres what you said, Dys, to open the thread:

"Liberalism is an ideology, philosophical view, and political tradition which holds that liberty is the primary political value.[1] Liberalism has its roots in the Western Age of Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought.

Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power, especially of government and religion, the rule of law, free public education, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports relatively free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected.[2] In modern society, liberals favor a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed.[3]
Which is the extreme opposit of conservatism in american politics."

I challenged you to show by example or evidence that conservatism opposed the things you say liberalism emphasizes. You offer nothing, Dyslexia, nothing, except criticizing my intelligence and ability to debate. If you are a liberal, you aren't living up to the "free exchange of ideas" that you tout as a liberal skill. I don't even know what your ideas are beyond the fact you live in Wolf Hole, or New Mexico, you are a liberal, like your guns and Barry Goldwater, which really makes little sense because Goldwater was a conservative and gun rights are not exactly a liberal mantra. And Wolf Hole is not in New Mexico, but I hope you have figured that much out about where you live.

So what do you really believe, Dys?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

okie wrote:
Walter, every time I mention communists and Marxists, it sure gets your attention. So where do I find out how many leftists and liberals that don't admit they are communists and marxists, but actually are?

One idea would be to look at the various party programs.
....

I've been doing that for the last 40 years at least, Walter. Thats what my political opinions are based on in case you missed it.

Anyway, thanks for making a few cogent comments, which is refreshing.

I read the manefesto for the World Federation of Liberalism and just a couple of comments. Some things agree with leftists here, and some things are clearly American conservative ideas. And some of the things within the manefesto are often in opposition to each other, so I think what is being advocated is a balance, but I am not ruling out the possibility of conflicting policies, in other words talking out of both sides of their mouth as many politicians have a tendency to do.

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Well, the parties within the "World Federation of Liberalism" show the complete spectrum of liberalism, from left to right. (Only the extreme right, represented by a few European parties, isn't there)

Besides perhaps the (British) Liberal Democrats, most liberal parties are right of the center in many parts of their programs.

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Thanks for your take on it, Walter.

Here, you need to know that the term "liberal" applies to the political spectrum on the left that kind of runs the gamut, from people that believe the government should help everybody to people that hate free enterprise and would love the government do everything and can be classified as socialists or communist sympathizers. Seldom do these people actually advocate the totality of their beliefs because communism and socialism are not popular as words, but I am simply making judgements based on their political tendencies and affections. They show a contempt for business and a sympathy for communist leaders and countries. Most don't even know what they are. In number of actual communists and avowed socialists, the number is quite low of course, but the number of people that want the government to solve every problem and assure their financial comfort is on the increase, so this little program here and that program there all add up to more government control and less individual freedom and responsibility. I ascribe the problem to at least a couple of things, one being the human nature of laziness in a very affluent society and the other being a very poor educational system in this regard, both in the press and in the schools.

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plainoldme wrote:

First of all, you get what you pay for.

Second, if corporations were even moderately controlled, goods would be less expensive. There would be the sort of program the left wing students of the 60s dreamed of.

Third, if corporations had any conscience at all, goods would be less expensive. There would be the sort of program the left wing students of the 60s dreamed of.

If you truly believe this,then why do so many on the left oppose Walmart?
They have inexpensive goods,aimed at selling to the middle and lower class.
They have just cut the price of over 300 generic drugs to $4,drugs that are on the govts prescription drug program.
Again,that is aimed at helping the middle and lower class.

Yeet,they are constantly attacked for their policies and practices,and now they are being attacked because their generic drug program didnt cover non-generic drugs.

It seems you want it both ways.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

It's a stupid question, though.

Of course Liberals favor limited goverment. We just disagree with you over where those limits should be.

Cycloptichorn

Its a stupid question according to you, cyclops, because you don't like questions that have answers that do not fit your template. Health care is only one example of many issues wherein liberals want bigger government with increased authority and scope of influence. To claim otherwise is nonsense.

Sure, but that answer is not inconsistent with the idea that Liberals also support a government that is limited in size and power. We just don't agree with you where the gov't should be larger, and where it should be smaller.

For example, I would like to see us spend less on defense. Much less. Our defense budget equals the rest of the world combined. It is ridiculous that we drop such gigantic amounts of money when we have such huge problems in other areas which affect people's everyday lives just as much.

Therefore, I would like to see gov't limited and shrunk in that fashion.

'Limited government' is a criticism, not a governing philosophy, Okie. We all have different opinions as to where the limits should be, but to claim that Liberals simply want to balloon the gov't up as large as possible is ridiculous and nothing more than stereotyping. More importantly, you should look at how the gov't has grown under the last several years of Republican rule before you start throwing around accusations of who wants unlimited government.

A thought: you want a gov't which is limited in size, whereas I want a gov't which is limited in power.

Cycloptichorn

FYI,the US budget for defense does NOT equal the rest of the world combined.
You should have checked your facts before making that statement...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._military_budget

Quote:

The current (2005) United States military budget is larger than the military budgets of the next fourteen biggest spenders combined, and nearly seven times larger than China's, which places second. The United States and its close allies are responsible for approximately two-thirds of all military spending on Earth (of which, in turn, the U.S. is responsible for the majority), and spend 57 times more than the six rogue nations combined (Cuba, Iran,Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria). Military spending accounts for more than half of the United States' federal discretionary spending, which is all of the U.S. government's money not spoken for by pre-existing obligations.[2]

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, in 2003 the United States spent approximately 47% of the world's total military spending of US$956 billion.

While the overall U.S. military budget has risen over time, as a percentage of its GDP, the United states spends 4% on military. This compares higher than France's 2.6%, and lower than Saudi Arabia's 10%.[3] This is historically fairly low for the United States. While the spending budget has been slowly rising, the spending rate has been in a slow decline since peaking in 1944 at 37.8% of GDP. Even during the peak of the Vietnam War the percentage reached a high of 9.4% in 1968.[4]

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I oppose Walmart for several different reasons, but notably:

They import everything from China, which is terrible for our trade balances and bad for America in general.

Their items tend to be the lowest quality you could buy.

They pay their employees slave wages, provide little medical insurance and operate in an environment which is hostile towards women.

They increase the Homogonization of America one little step at a time.

So, I don't shop there, and encourage others not to as well.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I oppose Walmart for several different reasons, but notably:

They import everything from China, which is terrible for our trade balances and bad for America in general.

Their items tend to be the lowest quality you could buy.

They pay their employees slave wages, provide little medical insurance and operate in an environment which is hostile towards women.

They increase the Homogonization of America one little step at a time.

So, I don't shop there, and encourage others not to as well.

Cycloptichorn

Uh, cyclops, you need to read the World Federation of Liberalism and Bumble Bee's Liberal International"s grand goals. Free trade and importing products from other parts of the world is promoted by your "ilk" Smile

.

Secondly, what is your problem with the Chinese producing goods if you advocate fairness and free trade, and if you think the products are cheap, have you forgotten its a free country, just don't buy them. Per slave wages, don't work at Walmart, and forgetting Walmart for a moment, how come libs advocate aliens streaming across the border so that businesses can pay them truly slave wages and avoid giving full benefits? Meanwhile, Dems advocate raising the minimum wage! You libs are very confusing, cyclops.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I oppose Walmart for several different reasons, but notably:

They import everything from China, which is terrible for our trade balances and bad for America in general.

Their items tend to be the lowest quality you could buy.

They pay their employees slave wages, provide little medical insurance and operate in an environment which is hostile towards women.

They increase the Homogonization of America one little step at a time.

So, I don't shop there, and encourage others not to as well.

Cycloptichorn

And you have every right to not shop there.
I prefer not to shop there myself.

The difference between us is that while I dont shop there,I dont try and force them out of business,like many on the left seem to want to do.

As for importing everything from China,they arent the only company to do so,yet they are the only ones being attacked for it.
If you truly oppose the importation of goods from China,you would go after every company that does so,not just Walmart.

I dont know about the rest of the country,but the Walmart here pays extremely well for this area.
Their starting wage is just over $8 per hour.
Now I know that many of you will call that "slave wages" (which is just stupid and an oxymoron) but that is above the average starting pay of $7.50 per hour.

As for medical insurance,when did it become a companies responsibility to pay for your medical care?
Its not the job of any corporation to provide medical insurance,nor are they required to.
For you to complain about a benefit that you are being provided,one that is not required,seems a little silly to me.

As for them being hostile to women,I dont know enough about that to comment.
Every woman that I know that works at Walmart loves working there and wouldnt want to work anyplace else

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Mysterman, debating Plainoldme is hopeless. She seems to detest free enterprise, claiming companies sell us junk and that we have to buy it.

Walter, Plainoldme is an example of an American liberal that loves government and constantly criticizes and apparently detests free enterprise and business. She has so far not claimed to be a socialist or communist (she probably does not know what she is), but I would estimate she is ripe for the taking once a slick talker of that "ilk" comes along to promote that idealogy. She would likely vote for them and it.

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Quote:

You libs are very confusing, cyclops.

Only because you persist in seeing us all as a caricature, a stereotype, when we are individuals with differening opinions.

I am a Liberal, yet I want to close the border - pronto - and fine companies who hire illegals.

I am a Liberal, yet I don't believe in so-called 'Fair Trade' and think a certain level of protectionism would be good for our society.

I am a Liberal, yet I hate Hillary Clinton. Because she's not a Liberal.

I am a Liberal, yet I support the right to arm oneself according to the Second Amendment.

So, in response to your points:

Secondly, what is your problem with the Chinese producing goods if you advocate fairness and free trade

I don't have a problem with the Chinese producing goods at all, but I think it is harmful for our economy to buy all of our goods from another country.

nd if you think the products are cheap, have you forgotten its a free country, just don't buy them.

Um, I haven't forgotten it's a free country. I don't buy them. That's what I said originally.

Per slave wages, don't work at Walmart, and forgetting Walmart for a moment,[/quote]

I don't work there, and advocate others not to either. I don't think it's wrong to point out their bad practices as a company, however.

This is where you take a turn into 'some other topics-ville'

how come libs advocate aliens streaming across the border so that businesses can pay them truly slave wages and avoid giving full benefits?

I don't advocate this, I am adamantly against it.

Meanwhile, Dems advocate raising the minimum wage!

Yes, I do advocate this, because it will help people who need it. I don't believe those who say it won't, because these are the same people who say that giving money and tax breaks to the rich helps the poor. They are liars and are engaged in the truly oldest human profession: trying to justify their inherent greed. They have no credibility.

You libs are very confusing, cyclops.

Shrug. If you persist in seeing us as one giant person, I would think so.

Stop and consider the differences between different groups of the Republican party before deciding that Liberals are the most conflicted bunch...

Cycloptichorn

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True, you are not a typical Lib, cyclops. I enjoy debating you, as you do offer evidence and some logic to the discussion even though we don't agree all the time. We do actually agree occasionally, and I think there is hope for you to actually become a conservative on most fronts with time.

I would prefer we not import so much from China as well, but the truth is that it is a world market and thats just reality. Many Chinese products are in fact made pretty well and improving in my opinion. As a country, we simply cannot withdraw into a shell and survive economically. We must find a way to continue to compete, and that is why the old unions and some tradional ways of doing things will have to be refined, if not abandoned.

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okie wrote:

True, you are not a typical Lib, cyclops. I enjoy debating you, as you do offer evidence and some logic to the discussion even though we don't agree all the time. We do actually agree occasionally, and I think there is hope for you to actually become a conservative on most fronts with time.

I would prefer we not import so much from China as well, but the truth is that it is a world market and thats just reality. Many Chinese products are in fact made pretty well and improving in my opinion. As a country, we simply cannot withdraw into a shell and survive economically. We must find a way to continue to compete, and that is why the old unions and some tradional ways of doing things will have to be refined, if not abandoned.

There is a real tendency to believe that the solution to a problem is to do the exact opposite of whatever caused the problem in the first place, when that usually isn't the case either.

In this case, buying all of our goods from China is bad for several reasons, but the solution to the problem is not to stop buying goods from China, but to moderate our purchases. This can be done through gov't action and personal responsibility, depending on what route we choose to take as a society.

I have said before that I believe the new model for business will be a collective one. Those in my generation (mid-twenties) know that we have another 50-70 years of work ahead of us. We won't be working for the same companies, or in the same fields, for our whole lives; this being the case, I can see systems opening up that learn from the lessons of Capitalism and Socialism and pick and choose the ideas that work, while abandoning those which fail.

I forsee many small groups which form to work on a specific project, and from there decide what direction they are going to go - expand into a full corp. for producing services or products, sell off, or break up so that the various professionals can work on other projects they are interested in. Increases in technology make it much more likely that small groups will be able to make real differences in terms of construction, scientific advancements, and product advancements; but we could have a whole other thread about this, so...

Cycloptichorn

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okie wrote:

I presented contrary evidence.

No, you did not. That's is your problem, kiddo. You never present evidence, just your opinion and you totally ignore and/or fail to understand the contributions of others.

BTW, he wasn't commenting on your character.

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I am an extreme liberal

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