1
   

AXIS of Evil.

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 09:40 am
candidone1 wrote:
I think he me be alluding to the subjectivity in the criteria for what constitutes "evil".

It sounds more likes he's saying there's no such thing as evil.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 10:10 am
Blatham?
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 10:14 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
candidone1 wrote:
I think he me be alluding to the subjectivity in the criteria for what constitutes "evil".

It sounds more likes he's saying there's no such thing as evil.


I don't think he's saying that....after all, denial of the existence or use of the term "evil" would also mean that one would not recognize the countless synonyms for evil.
I simply do not think this is the case, but I'm sure Blatham can elaborate on his previous posts when he returns.
atrocious, bad, black, corruptive, dark, demonic, depraved, despicable, devilish, diabolic, diabolical, evil-minded, evilness, fiendish, flagitious, grievous, harmful, heinous, hellish, immoral, immorality, infernal, iniquity, injurious, malefic, maleficent, malevolent, malign, mephistophelean, mephistophelian, monstrous, perversive, satanic, sinister, ugly, unholy, unworthy, vicious, vile, wicked, wickedness
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 11:17 am
Brandon is Bush evil or just stupid? What is your opinion.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 03:24 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
So, you favor appeasing evil, not offending it?


no ! it must be exorcised.

"the power of Bush compels you ! the power of Bush compels you !
Laughing
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 03:47 pm
I guess if you do not make frequent use and/or application of the term "evil", you are appeasing those who are.

Sound logic Brandon.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 05:40 pm
brandon

I have a couple of questions so that I can clarify what you are talking about.

Where does 'evil' come from?
Where does it reside?
What range of things might this word apply to? For example, a mean dog? A product (say, some sort of weapon)?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 05:54 pm
au1929 wrote:
Brandon is Bush evil or just stupid? What is your opinion.

I find it counterproductive to keep changing the subject in the middle of a discussion, although I understand the reasons why you do it. Evil exists, the term is a useful category, and all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to say nothing.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 05:56 pm
candidone1 wrote:
I guess if you do not make frequent use and/or application of the term "evil", you are appeasing those who are.

Sound logic Brandon.

Not what I said. Again, you find it useful to misrepresent your opponent's viewpoint in order to obtain something you can compete with. I was talking to someone who had condemned identifying evil on the grounds that the evil might be angered by it. Are you constitutionally incapable of arguing against what your opponent actually said?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 05:58 pm
blatham wrote:
brandon

I have a couple of questions so that I can clarify what you are talking about.

Where does 'evil' come from?
Where does it reside?
What range of things might this word apply to? For example, a mean dog? A product (say, some sort of weapon)?

I have to go get a couple of dinners out of a microwave and have to be brief, but it would be approximately correct to say that the word evil describes someone who considers his own welfare to greatly outway the welfare of others.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Nov, 2006 09:49 pm
No, I am interpreting your statement not bringing it to a level I feel that I can "compete" with it.
Recap:

au1929 wrote:

The point is there was nothing to gain from the Axis of evil srtatement. And in fact it was a diplomatic blunder that could only inflame and harden the positions of those nations.


To which you respond:

Brandon9000 wrote:
So, you favor appeasing evil, not offending it? So, in school, when some bully demanded your lunch money, your primary emphasis was to try not to offend him lest he get really mad?


If a wife is beaten by her husband, should she further inflame him by calling him trailer trash?
If a fight has broken out in the hallway of a college between a black and a white male, should one antagonize the situation further by calling the opponent a cracker-ass-cracker or a n*gger?
When faced with an adversary in diametrical opposition to oneself, should one endeavor to fuel the fire, and play on the same court, by the same rules of those with whom we have antithetical beliefs, or should they take a position that is more advantageous and not mutually destructive?

This tired old conservative tough guy rhetoric solves nothing, as Bush's Axis of Evil statement proved.

You assert that if one does not apply the term evil to one's adversaries, one is therefore appeasing them.
I am not surprised by your black and white perspective on complex human issues Brandon.

Ever thought that the application of the term "evil" to said adversaries was unnecessary, or that there were perhaps other means or mechanisms for identifying their threat?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 06:03 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
blatham wrote:
brandon

I have a couple of questions so that I can clarify what you are talking about.

Where does 'evil' come from?
Where does it reside?
What range of things might this word apply to? For example, a mean dog? A product (say, some sort of weapon)?

I have to go get a couple of dinners out of a microwave and have to be brief, but it would be approximately correct to say that the word evil describes someone who considers his own welfare to greatly outway the welfare of others.


An evil person..."Someone who considers his own welfare to greatly outweigh the welfare of others"

Selfishness on steroids? How would "acting in our nation's best interests" fit into such a definition?

And what about someone who considers his own childrens' welfare to greatly outweight the welfare of other people's children? Equally 'evil'?

You skipped the questions I put to you. If you had tried to answer them, or think about them very much, you'd probably be less willing to toss the word "evil" around as unreflectively as you are doing.

Some people, like General Boykin who I quoted earlier, consider that "evil" is a property of things/people which exists because of Satan. I know McG doesn't think that way, and I'm not sure about you. Your answer above suggests you don't. That's good as it allows at least some sort of conversation that isn't just plain looney.

But even if you and McG don't hold that Satan stuffed "evil" into people and things, you still talk (and think, apparently) that "evil" is a property of persons/things. A country can be evil, you suggest. But it is as senseless and unhelpful to think this way as it is to think that a country can be "sad" or "beautiful" or even "good". Is the Dutch West Indies "good"?

"Canada is beautiful". That's a hugely stupid sentence, if we wish to be careful. Dying old people in a hospice in Toronto...beautiful? The Prime Minister getting a colonoscopy...beautiful? A thousand tons of H2O seeking equilibrium (a waterfall)...beautiful? Beauty isn't a property of a thing. It is a response or a judgement in some viewer.

It doesn't make much real world difference if we say, rather poetically, that "Panama is a sad country". It doesn't make much difference because that judgement about Panama doesn't suggest that the place ought to be fumigated or bombed or have its government taken out back and shot. That's what makes "evil" a particularly dangerous term.

And it is why we have to be VERY clear that "evil" isn't a property of a thing, it is a word we use to communicate the strength of our negative response to something we witness or hear about. "Evil" is in a language of emotional response, not rational thought.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 07:43 am
blatham wrote:
An evil person..."Someone who considers his own welfare to greatly outweigh the welfare of others"

Selfishness on steroids? How would "acting in our nation's best interests" fit into such a definition?

And what about someone who considers his own childrens' welfare to greatly outweight the welfare of other people's children? Equally 'evil'?

You skipped the questions I put to you. If you had tried to answer them, or think about them very much, you'd probably be less willing to toss the word "evil" around as unreflectively as you are doing.

Some people, like General Boykin who I quoted earlier, consider that "evil" is a property of things/people which exists because of Satan. I know McG doesn't think that way, and I'm not sure about you. Your answer above suggests you don't. That's good as it allows at least some sort of conversation that isn't just plain looney.

But even if you and McG don't hold that Satan stuffed "evil" into people and things, you still talk (and think, apparently) that "evil" is a property of persons/things. A country can be evil, you suggest. But it is as senseless and unhelpful to think this way as it is to think that a country can be "sad" or "beautiful" or even "good". Is the Dutch West Indies "good"?

"Canada is beautiful". That's a hugely stupid sentence, if we wish to be careful. Dying old people in a hospice in Toronto...beautiful? The Prime Minister getting a colonoscopy...beautiful? A thousand tons of H2O seeking equilibrium (a waterfall)...beautiful? Beauty isn't a property of a thing. It is a response or a judgement in some viewer.

It doesn't make much real world difference if we say, rather poetically, that "Panama is a sad country". It doesn't make much difference because that judgement about Panama doesn't suggest that the place ought to be fumigated or bombed or have its government taken out back and shot. That's what makes "evil" a particularly dangerous term.

And it is why we have to be VERY clear that "evil" isn't a property of a thing, it is a word we use to communicate the strength of our negative response to something we witness or hear about. "Evil" is in a language of emotional response, not rational thought.


I am glad you have finally, sort of, defined evil for our consideration...

I would like to start by answering your questions briefly.

Where does 'evil' come from? The actions of man (not exclusive, but descriptive of the human race)
Where does it reside? In the hearts of man
What range of things might this word apply to? For example, a mean dog? A product (say, some sort of weapon)? Only man is evil. I believe evil is a result of intelligence and there are no "evil" things in the natural world.

Evil is not Satan, a by-product od satan, and should not be reduced to some super-natural force. As Forrest Gump would say, "Evil is as evil does."

When I say a country, I mean it's government and the actions it takes as they relate to my personal values and morals. For example, raping someone is an evil act. Killing someone other than in self-defense or as punishment for a crime (which would have been an evil act) is an act of evil.

The governments of Iran, Iraq and North Korea are all guilty of many evil acts. Killing innocents, keeping half their population as a subserviant second-class, starving their citizens, supporting terrorism, arming terrorists, etc... These are acts of evil and therefore "evil is as evil does".
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 09:02 am
Quote:
I am glad you have finally, sort of, defined evil for our consideration...

When dealing with a term such as this one, the first step is trying to make manifest all the things about we we might assume without even being aware we are making such assumptions.

Quote:
Where does it reside? In the hearts of man

There's an example, though a much less important one. It ain't sitting below the left ventricle, as you know.

Quote:
The governments of Iran, Iraq and North Korea are all guilty of many evil acts. Killing innocents, keeping half their population as a subserviant second-class, starving their citizens, supporting terrorism, arming terrorists, etc... These are acts of evil and therefore "evil is as evil does".

But the US too has committed acts of "evil". Read Twain on the Phillipines. Or the folks who were unlucky enough to live near to Noriega's house. Lots of etceteras.

So its not sufficient to simply note acts committed (or ommitted). Probably, we have to figure out some sort of measure which weighs cumulative consequences of an individual's acts, or a group's acts.

I think you've got it square on to focus on 'acts'. Obviously, 'intentions' too must be part of what we consider (above, Brandon makes no mention of cruelty, the intentional causing of pain/suffering). I consider that the present administration's attempts to excuse or legalize or legitimize torture are a moral wrong. You might argue that, but certainly no one would argue that such acts done for pleasure constitute a clear moral wrong.

One of the fundamental dangers of using this sort of language of 'evil' is that we are remarkably blind to consequences of our own acts and to assumptions about ourselves. It is easy to imagine a fundamentalist Muslim of the "America is Satan" sort considering that merely as a function of his adherence to the Koran (his understanding of it, of course) gives him a goodness or godliness right from the git go. He can't be wrong, or can't be very wrong, because he swims in an ocean of The Good. Unfortunately, such is also the case with nutty christians and nutty americans or nutty Brits, etc.

The more one looks at this slogan 'axis of evil', the more ludicrous it becomes as any sort of helpful way to think about things and, certainly, for a political figure to use in talking about the world.

For me, military or diplomatic or aid intervention seems morally justified (even morally necessary) where some population of civilians are suffering through accident or through cruelty/oppression, etc. And that is the moral argument which we all responded to as regards Iraq and which we respond to when we think or say that North Korea is really an ugly situation for far too many people.

But...but...but... if we face reality, then we are forced to acknowledge that there is simply no chance at all that if Iraq was located somewhere in the arctic and had no oil reserves, we wouldn't have gone there. That if Israel had established itself in northern Canada and the esquimos wanted it gone, the US and the Israeli government would be far, far more disconnected than at present. Israel is important not merely out of sympathy, or out of significant jewish populations here, or out of intensive lobbying, or out of cultural/historical sympathies, but mainly because of where it is and its importance to the oil resource.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 09:26 am
Intentions certainly weigh heavily on evil. Interrogating terrorists in an effort to save innocent lives could hardly be considered an act of evil. Torturing a man because he is of a different religion would be an act of evil.

Take a look at the "axis of evil" statement in it's context:

Quote:
Our second goal is to prevent regimes that sponsor terror from threatening America or our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction. Some of these regimes have been pretty quiet since September the 11th. But we know their true nature. North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens.

Iran aggressively pursues these weapons and exports terror, while an unelected few repress the Iranian people's hope for freedom.

Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax, and nerve gas, and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens -- leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections -- then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world.

States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic.


It's very fitting.

If Iraq were in a region that had no oil, they would not be in the position they are in because they would not have had access to the massive funds their natural resource has provided them. They would be a backwater country embroiled in internal religious affairs and would be of no concern on the world stage. That arguement holds no water Blatham. It's the oil that has provided Saddam the funding to be a danger.

Has the US committed acts of evil in that past? Sure. Is that what really concerns you about Bush's statement though? We must be more concerned about the future though, while being mindful of the past.

I am sure you know that "In the hearts of man" is a metaphor. You belittle your own intelligence commenting on it as anything other then that.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 01:40 pm
McG said
Quote:
If Iraq were in a region that had no oil, they would not be in the position they are in because they would not have had access to the massive funds their natural resource has provided them. They would be a backwater country embroiled in internal religious affairs and would be of no concern on the world stage. That arguement holds no water Blatham. It's the oil that has provided Saddam the funding to be a danger.

Has the US committed acts of evil in that past? Sure. Is that what really concerns you about Bush's statement though? We must be more concerned about the future though, while being mindful of the past.

I am sure you know that "In the hearts of man" is a metaphor. You belittle your own intelligence commenting on it as anything other then that.


Re "heart"...you'll note the tag end of my sentence..."as you know". And I said it wasn't a terribly important use of questionable language. I meant merely to point again to the ways in which language, metaphors in particular, can play tricks on us, in no small part because we tend to stop thinking when we put them to use.

That oil allowed Iraq to become affluent is true, but it is irrelevant. If it were the case that it reached its 2000 AD level of affluence but had merely another year's worth of oil underground, and if there was no other oil in that region, the US would not have invaded. Control and domination of the resource (essential to the US and modern economies) and NOT moral considerations is the only sensible conclusion as to motivation. There are parts of the world where many more have and are dying preventable deaths but they gain little attention from the US government whereas the investment in this Iraq project is mind-boggling in terms of dollars. The war was marketed as a self-defence project and then marketed as a moral project. The important word there is 'marketed'. North Korea did not see a landing of US forces and they now have the bomb whereas Iraq did not and would not have had it these many years later.

The PNAC states, explicitly, that what America ought to get up to in this uni-polar world is the maintenance/increase of its own dominance in the world through taking on anyone who might pose a threat to that dominance. Such a project would definitely NOT gain the support of the majority of US citizens, not to mention allies in the world. And that's why you've experienced this onslaught of marketing re Sadaam and evil.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 01:57 pm
Quote:
There are parts of the world where many more have and are dying preventable deaths but they gain little attention from the US government


They don't seem to be getting much attention from any government. That's a nice device you have there Blatham. What is Canada doing about those places? The EU? You can blame America for many things, but you are off base on this one. Those places do not present the destructive power of an Iraq, made wealthy and influential because of it's natural resources.

Why allow a country like Iraq access to such a powerful weapon as the atom bomb? Lil'Kim has already shown the power that mere rumors of owning a nuclear device can basically blackmail the world, as you have stated.

If Iraq did not have oil, they would not have the ability to threaten the world or it's neighbors and we would not have needed to invade them. We can dance in this circle all day if you would like, but oil is not the reason we invaded and no hypothetical will make that the case.

Bush listed off a number of reason for describing them as evil. Can you refute any of them?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 02:11 pm
candidone1 wrote:
No, I am interpreting your statement not bringing it to a level I feel that I can "compete" with it.
Recap:

au1929 wrote:

The point is there was nothing to gain from the Axis of evil srtatement. And in fact it was a diplomatic blunder that could only inflame and harden the positions of those nations.


To which you respond:

Brandon9000 wrote:
So, you favor appeasing evil, not offending it? So, in school, when some bully demanded your lunch money, your primary emphasis was to try not to offend him lest he get really mad?


Yes, which you then characterize as:

candidone1 wrote:
I guess if you do not make frequent use and/or application of the term "evil", you are appeasing those who are.

Sound logic Brandon.

I didn't say that if one doesn't make "frequent use and/or application of the term "evil", you are appeasing those who are" evil. I said that if one refrains from doing so in order not to anger the evil entity in question, then you are appeasing him/it. I didn't say that you have to use the term evil at least 5 times a day. So once again you respond to a statement that I never made, rather than what I actually said.


candidone1 wrote:
If a wife is beaten by her husband, should she further inflame him by calling him trailer trash?
If a fight has broken out in the hallway of a college between a black and a white male, should one antagonize the situation further by calling the opponent a cracker-ass-cracker or a n*gger?
When faced with an adversary in diametrical opposition to oneself, should one endeavor to fuel the fire, and play on the same court, by the same rules of those with whom we have antithetical beliefs, or should they take a position that is more advantageous and not mutually destructive?

This tired old conservative tough guy rhetoric solves nothing, as Bush's Axis of Evil statement proved.

You assert that if one does not apply the term evil to one's adversaries, one is therefore appeasing them.
I am not surprised by your black and white perspective on complex human issues Brandon.

Ever thought that the application of the term "evil" to said adversaries was unnecessary, or that there were perhaps other means or mechanisms for identifying their threat?

You appear to be implying that it is never appropriate to publicly identify evil in the world. I should think it obvious that sometimes it is helpful and sometimes it isn't. I do think it is sometimes helpful for a national leader to identify nations which are doing great evil in the world, especially when such countries may soon manifest their evil in very harmul ways. Identifying a problem is the first step towards fixing it. Now, if you respond, I think it would save time if you don't put words in my mouth which I never said. It's not very hard for me to say, "Candidone1, you're a fool for advocating the unliateral disarmament of the West," but if you never said any such thing, it's not very honest of me, is it?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 02:13 pm
McG

I don't think we are going to get anywhere.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Nov, 2006 02:29 pm
By way of example, take this information here...
Quote:
America is now seen as a threat to world peace by its closest neighbours and allies, according to an international survey of public opinion published today that reveals just how far the country's reputation has fallen among former supporters since the invasion of Iraq.

Carried out as US voters prepare to go to the polls next week in an election dominated by the war, the research also shows that British voters see George Bush as a greater danger to world peace than either the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il, or the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Both countries were once cited by the US president as part of an "axis of evil", but it is Mr Bush who now alarms voters in countries with traditionally strong links to the US.


Bush said, and may even have believed, that Iran, NK, and Iraq posed great threat as a function of their "evil" quotient and their potential to influence the world negatively.

Given these polling results above, what must be the notions held - by even the Brits, Canadians and Israelis, for gods sakes - concerning present America?

Likely, these folks wouldn't insist that Bush or America is "evil". But that seems mainly because such a simplistic and metaphoric framework is understood to be, of itself, deeply dangerous.
0 Replies
 
 

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