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When Does Life Begin?

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:22 pm
Eorl wrote:
baddog1, I think in the 8th month, for the reasons you are giving, I would have her committed her to a mental hospital and have the baby delivered by force...that way, she is not being forced to continue being pregnant. From this point on, the baby is capable of living without her. No doctor in this country would perform an abortion in the 8th month anyway.

How many examples of 8th month abortions for the sake of slim school re-unions do you know of?


On EXACTLY what day of gestation do you think the unborn is worthy of the drastic protection you have described?

What about the day before that? If not, why not?

What has happened to change the medical status of the unborn at the precise point you refer to?
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:42 pm
Eorl, I was going to congratulate you on having such a healthy attitude toward an individual's choice over what happens to their body when I read this:

Quote:
If my wife had wanted an abortion, I would have done all that I could to talk her out of it....but, if she had insisted, I would have supported her. It's her body, it's her choice. Nobody has the right to force her to carry to term. Not me, and certainly not you.


Then I read this and was dismayed by your change of heart:

Quote:
baddog1, I think in the 8th month, for the reasons you are giving, I would have her committed her to a mental hospital and have the baby delivered by force...that way, she is not being forced to continue being pregnant. From this point on, the baby is capable of living without her. No doctor in this country would perform an abortion in the 8th month anyway.


Now after reading this reply to, I am confused.

Quote:
We began falling in love with the idea of having a baby almost immediately, and although it could not have happened at a worse time for us, there's no way either of us would consider an abortion for those reasons.

We had scans at 12 weeks and 18 weeks and no abnormalities were found. If they had been, we would have at least discussed the idea of abortion at that point. I can't know what decision we would have made if there had been.

What you seem to be missing is that no matter what decision we made, we don't have the right to make those decisions for other people.


I am hoping you were being just as facetious in your reply to baddog as he was in his question. You wouldn't really have your wife committed to force her into child birth, would ya?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:56 pm
Hoo boy, better haul him in quick.

Eorl is off the reservation.

Call in the marshals.

Don't let him start thinking this thing thru too much.

INTERVENTION!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 12:10 am
Look who's talking about intervention.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 12:16 am
Yes I would, because I know my wife very well (19 years is a long time) and I know that abortion at 8 months would be a) a sure sign she'd gone insane, b) almost impossible to arrange, at least in this country.

She's had ample time to consider an abortion long before now. At this point in the foetus's development, it almost certainly can feel some kind of pain, it is capable of processing some information and it's perfectly capable of surviving outside the womb.

An abortion at 8 months would be unthinkable for my wife, in fact I doubt she would choose to save her own life if that was a choice she had to make.

One of the main reasons I want early legal safe abortions is to prevent late dangerous abortions. Just as the "every abortion is bad" party is wrong to view the situation in black & white, so is the "every abortion is fine" party (IMHO).
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 12:22 am
EorI, That's not the issue about pro-lifers concering "late abortions." The issue is, it's none of their business what the woman or father does to a fetus. Their hypocrisy is loud and clear when they only wish to intervene in other people's (fetus') lives without so much as a stink after they are born. They don't even care about infanticide. They're not voicing any opposition to that practice that really kills babies. Bunch a hypocrites, I say!
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 10:33 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
EorI, That's not the issue about pro-lifers concering "late abortions." The issue is, it's none of their business what the woman or father does to a fetus. Their hypocrisy is loud and clear when they only wish to intervene in other people's (fetus') lives without so much as a stink after they are born. They don't even care about infanticide. They're not voicing any opposition to that practice that really kills babies. Bunch a hypocrites, I say!


Woman OR father?

That's a new twist for you, CI.

Should Eorl, as the father, have the right to prevent the abortion of his unborn child at 8 months gestation?

Why or why not?

Should the father ever have the right to cause an abortion if the woman doesn't want it?
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 10:36 am
When it is inside HIS body, he can have all the rights he wants. Until then, keep your/his hands off her/my body. Respect her/my medical decisions in the same way you demand respect for the medical decisions you make for your own life.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 11:46 am
Butrflynet wrote:
When it is inside HIS body, he can have all the rights he wants. Until then, keep your/his hands off her/my body. Respect her/my medical decisions in the same way you demand respect for the medical decisions you make for your own life.


Exactly! Therefore any woman who chooses to abort a 8+ month fetus (that is inside her body) for whatever reason she chooses - has every right to do so!!!! Keep your cotton-pickin' opinion to yourself about that! Got it RL!!! :wink:
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 12:04 pm
baddog1 wrote:
Butrflynet wrote:
When it is inside HIS body, he can have all the rights he wants. Until then, keep your/his hands off her/my body. Respect her/my medical decisions in the same way you demand respect for the medical decisions you make for your own life.


Exactly! Therefore any woman who chooses to abort a 8+ month fetus (that is inside her body) for whatever reason she chooses - has every right to do so!!!! Keep your cotton-pickin' opinion to yourself about that! Got it RL!!! :wink:

Your smug attitude sickens me.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 12:39 pm
Doktor S wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
Butrflynet wrote:
When it is inside HIS body, he can have all the rights he wants. Until then, keep your/his hands off her/my body. Respect her/my medical decisions in the same way you demand respect for the medical decisions you make for your own life.


Exactly! Therefore any woman who chooses to abort a 8+ month fetus (that is inside her body) for whatever reason she chooses - has every right to do so!!!! Keep your cotton-pickin' opinion to yourself about that! Got it RL!!! :wink:

Your smug attitude sickens me.


Smug attitude! What gives here? Confused Butrflynet says it's no one's business what any woman does with her body/fetus, etc. (In a very "smug" manner I might add - look up the definition!) I provided an example of a position that it is passionate to me; however clearly in opposition of her position - and you start throwing arrows!

And if you don't think there would be women who would abort in the 8th month - guess again! Shocked
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 01:21 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
EorI, That's not the issue about pro-lifers concering "late abortions." The issue is, it's none of their business what the woman or father does to a fetus. Their hypocrisy is loud and clear when they only wish to intervene in other people's (fetus') lives without so much as a stink after they are born. They don't even care about infanticide. They're not voicing any opposition to that practice that really kills babies. Bunch a hypocrites, I say!

For once I have to disagree with you, c.i. IMO, sometime in the third trimester the fetal brain has developed to the point that it might be aware, not of itself, of course (even infants are not self-aware), but able to feel pain and be considered a human being. We cannot pinpoint an exact moment, day, or even week that this occurs, but we know that consciousness does NOT exist prior to 24 weeks. Yes, it has reflexive responses, but the brain is not far enough along in its wiring process to be capable of thought or deliberate action.

IMO, if the fetus has a human brain capable of being conscious, it should not be aborted for any reason other than being non-viable or a threat to its mother's health or well-being. Since late-term abortions are not legally be done for any other reason, this is an anti-abortionist strawman and not a legitimate argument against abortion in general.

I agree with Eorl that any woman who would have an abortion in the 8th month for the "frivolous" reasons listed by baddog1 is probably mentally ill. I would not have them forceably delivered of their fetus, but would get them psychiatric counseling.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 01:27 pm
Terry, I agree. I keep thinking about "their" argument about the fetus in its earliest stages of pregnancy is a "baby." I'm not aware of any case where a woman aborts a fetus in the eighth month, but I'm sure there are plenty of health care workers that would intervene in such cases to prevent an abortion.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 03:01 pm
Quote:
IMO, if the fetus has a human brain capable of being conscious, it should not be aborted for any reason other than being non-viable or a threat to its mother's health or well-being.


I see that it's IMO - however who would police this? What would be the penalty (if any) if/when a mother chooses to do this? Who decides the penalty?

Quote:
Since late-term abortions are not legally be done for any other reason, this is an anti-abortionist strawman and not a legitimate argument against abortion in general.


What does legality have to do with it? Legality has been a very weak by-product of the womans-rights issue when it comes to abortion - so let's consider it another way. If late-term abortions were legal - would you then support them - if the woman desired to have one?

Quote:
I agree with Eorl that any woman who would have an abortion in the 8th month for the "frivolous" reasons listed by baddog1 is probably mentally ill. I would not have them forceably delivered of their fetus, but would get them psychiatric counseling.


Try not to relate my reasoning with "frivolous" words. "Frivolous" is as subjective as this entire subject. "Probably mentally ill" is also subjective and an assumption. (Although you could very well be correct.) If you would not force them to deliver their fetus - then by proxy - you would have to support them in aborting - even in the 8th month! Agreed? (BTW: I agree with the psych-counseling in this event.)
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 04:59 pm
Quote:
I agree with Eorl that any woman who would have an abortion in the 8th month for the "frivolous" reasons listed by baddog1 is probably mentally ill. I would not have them forceably delivered of their fetus, but would get them psychiatric counseling.



Ding! Ding! Ding! Get this person an award!

Eorl had said that he'd force her to have an early child birth while committed in a mental institution in order to end her anguish over changing her mind about not wanting the baby.

Forcing her to birth rather than educating her about the alternatives and consequences, and allowing her to make her own informed choice is a power issue, not a medical or moral issue. That's all the argument over abortion is....a power struggle between those who want power over others and how they live their lives and those who give that power to no one but themselves.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 05:07 pm
Quote:
Smug attitude! What gives here? Butrflynet says it's no one's business what any woman does with her body/fetus, etc. (In a very "smug" manner I might add - look up the definition!) I provided an example of a position that it is passionate to me; however clearly in opposition of her position - and you start throwing arrows!

And if you don't think there would be women who would abort in the 8th month - guess again!


No, that's not what I said. What I said is that it is not your choice to make for me. You're welcome to have whatever opinion on the subject you wish. However, where your opinion and my right to choose for myself meet is where your opinion weakens and loses all power over me. Once I've signed over a medical power of attorney giving you authorization to make medical decisions for me, then you can do so. Until then, you are just meddling in someone else's business with nothing more than an opinion. And that's just fine. Informed opinions and facts are needed to help the decision process.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 05:11 pm
baddog wrote: What does legality have to do with it? Legality has been a very weak by-product of the womans-rights issue when it comes to abortion - so let's consider it another way. If late-term abortions were legal - would you then support them - if the woman desired to have one?

In the US, legality has everything to do with it. As for late abortions, I'm not sure they are that frequent, and when a woman is considering such, all kinds of health care and social workers will try to assist the woman to make the right decision. That you want to impose "your" morals on somebody you don't even know is the issue. Keep your nose out of it; it's none of your business. It's the decision between the woman and the social and health care workers. They will provide the woman with the alternatives and options to make her deicison - including the legal issues.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 06:27 pm
Terry wrote:
IMO, sometime in the third trimester the fetal brain has developed to the point that it might be aware, not of itself, of course (even infants are not self-aware), but able to feel pain and be considered a human being. We cannot pinpoint an exact moment, day, or even week that this occurs, but we know that consciousness does NOT exist prior to 24 weeks. Yes, it has reflexive responses, but the brain is not far enough along in its wiring process to be capable of thought or deliberate action.

We know that pregnancy begins with fertilization and ends (hopefully) with birth. We know with reasonable certainty that consciousness (or the capacity to feel pain, at least) begins at some point in between. Since that point has yet to be found, how can you be certain that it does not exist prior to 24 weeks?
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 06:37 pm
I'm not claiming the right to keep the baby or control her body.

I'm claiming the right to have her committed due to such an extreme and shocking change of everything she ever was. Such things do happen, especially when the extreme hormones of pregnancy are involved. To let my wife go ahead with it would be the equivalent of letting her jump off the top of a building during a depressive episode. I was asked about my particular situation and I answered honestly, even though it would appear to complicate the discussion....but then, it's a complicated situation.

I maintain that abortion needs to be available, (and probably legal) at every stage, but that every effort should be made to have abortions early rather than late.

Again, those who try to present this in black & white terms are trivialising an important human rights issue that needs to be dealt with maturely.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 06:42 pm
EorI, I don't think you really mean to "have her committed." I think your choice is to have her observed by a psychiatrist or healthcare provider about her mental condition that seems contrary to what you believe to be normal behavior.
0 Replies
 
 

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