When Does Life Begin?

Eorl wrote:

Imagine a situation where a young girl has been raped by her father who has threatened to kill her if she tells anyone...realises she is pregnant. In a society where abortion is safe, legal and confidential...she has a way out. In a society without those things...her options are: Risk her life by telling authorities why she wants an abortion...Risk her life trying to procure an illegal abortionTake her own life, and that of the foetus with it, and a few other options all of which are nasty...(in all of these cases she's going to wait longer than she otherwise would, meaning the abortion of a later-term foetus)....

I want a society that protects and values people's lives. Now, if you are able to demonstrate to me that the life of 10 day old foetus is equal to the life of a 14 year old girl, then I need to consider risking that 14 year old girl's life to protect the foetus instead. But you can't demostrate that the two lives are equal because they are not, for many reasons. This is why I view the anti-abortion position as one that is cruel and dishonest, and costs lives, rather than the other way around. This is why the left, the humanitarians, amnesty international agree with me.

RL: Would you recommend the girl remain silent about the rape and protect the rapist (in your scenario, her father)?

Eorl: No, I would not. I'd reccommend strongly that she take the appropriate action (report to police, etc.) and then provide the abortion without conditions (if that was my role in this scenario)

Does your answer change if the rapist is her next door neighbor?

No

Does your answer change if the rapist is her school teacher?

No

Does your answer change if the rapist is her boss at work?

No

Does your answer change if the rapist is a stranger?

No

Rape should be reported , prosecuted and the rapist put away for a looooooooooong time (IMO , the minimal sentence would be measured in decades, not months or years). Do you not agree?

Yes, mostly. I'd be less harsh than you I think.

How can you say you agree if you are encouraging the girl to remain silent, thus protecting the rapist?

I'm not, and never would.I may, or may not take some action myself in the above situations. It would depend on my local ethics laws I expect. I would still provide unconditional abortion in any case

real, It's not a matter of either or.

it begins at the moment of conception.

straight away all the information is there ready to form a new born child. no matter what you believe in you can't deny that. just because it hasn't formed into a human shape physically does not mean it is not alive.

Eorl wrote:

Imagine a situation where a young girl has been raped by her father who has threatened to kill her if she tells anyone...realises she is pregnant. In a society where abortion is safe, legal and confidential...she has a way out. In a society without those things...her options are: Risk her life by telling authorities why she wants an abortion...Risk her life trying to procure an illegal abortionTake her own life, and that of the foetus with it, and a few other options all of which are nasty...(in all of these cases she's going to wait longer than she otherwise would, meaning the abortion of a later-term foetus)....

I want a society that protects and values people's lives. Now, if you are able to demonstrate to me that the life of 10 day old foetus is equal to the life of a 14 year old girl, then I need to consider risking that 14 year old girl's life to protect the foetus instead. But you can't demostrate that the two lives are equal because they are not, for many reasons. This is why I view the anti-abortion position as one that is cruel and dishonest, and costs lives, rather than the other way around. This is why the left, the humanitarians, amnesty international agree with me.

RL: Would you recommend the girl remain silent about the rape and protect the rapist (in your scenario, her father)?

Eorl: No, I would not. I'd reccommend strongly that she take the appropriate action (report to police, etc.) and then provide the abortion without conditions (if that was my role in this scenario)

Does your answer change if the rapist is her next door neighbor?

No

Does your answer change if the rapist is her school teacher?

No

Does your answer change if the rapist is her boss at work?

No

Does your answer change if the rapist is a stranger?

No

Rape should be reported , prosecuted and the rapist put away for a looooooooooong time (IMO , the minimal sentence would be measured in decades, not months or years). Do you not agree?

Yes, mostly. I'd be less harsh than you I think.

How can you say you agree if you are encouraging the girl to remain silent, thus protecting the rapist?

I'm not, and never would.I may, or may not take some action myself in the above situations. It would depend on my local ethics laws I expect. I would still provide unconditional abortion in any case

it begins at the moment of conception.

straight away all the information is there ready to form a new born child. no matter what you believe in you can't deny that. just because it hasn't formed into a human shape physically does not mean it is not alive.

real life, like I said, it depends on the local laws. I would report if required, and not report if required not to report (read that carefully). If it was at my discretion, I would try to use that discretion wisely in each case. If I felt reporting would put more lives in jeopardy than it protected, I probably wouldn't. Would you?

rockpie wrote:

it begins at the moment of conception.

straight away all the information is there ready to form a new born child. no matter what you believe in you can't deny that. just because it hasn't formed into a human shape physically does not mean it is not alive.

If that's the rule then we should be actively promoting cloning because every cell we have has the information to create a complete human being. Stop washing yourself your killing potential humans!!!

Nevertheless, I will concede that we can't say it isn't alive - except that was never the conjecture, the question was 'is a zygote a human being?' NOT 'is a zygote alive'. Is a tadpole a frog?

Eorl wrote:

real life, like I said, it depends on the local laws. I would report if required, and not report if required not to report (read that carefully). If it was at my discretion, I would try to use that discretion wisely in each case. If I felt reporting would put more lives in jeopardy than it protected, I probably wouldn't. Would you?

You are saying if a young woman was raped and her life was threatened you would do nothing?

My wife is carrying what we very much hope to be our second child right now. Due shortly after Christmas. It's alive and it's human and we are very excited and already falling in love with it.

If my wife had wanted an abortion, I would have done all that I could to talk her out of it....but, if she had insisted, I would have supported her. It's her body, it's her choice. Nobody has the right to force her to carry to term. Not me, and certainly not you.

baddog1, I think in the 8th month, for the reasons you are giving, I would have her committed her to a mental hospital and have the baby delivered by force...that way, she is not being forced to continue being pregnant. From this point on, the baby is capable of living without her. No doctor in this country would perform an abortion in the 8th month anyway.

How many examples of 8th month abortions for the sake of slim school re-unions do you know of?

My wife is carrying what we very much hope to be our second child right now. Due shortly after Christmas. It's alive and it's human and we are very excited and already falling in love with it.

If my wife had wanted an abortion, I would have done all that I could to talk her out of it....but, if she had insisted, I would have supported her. It's her body, it's her choice. Nobody has the right to force her to carry to term. Not me, and certainly not you.

baddog projects like the best of neocons/conservatives. They post everything they can think up is negative.

edgar, That you grew and others didn't is a cheap shot.