When Does Life Begin?

Any handcapped person alive was the choice made by the woman to go full term with her baby. That was "her" choice. Having grown up is a subsequent event way beyond the day of conception.

You don't need to tell me about the developmentally disabled; I've worked in the management of two nonprofit organizations that provides services to them for over 18-years before I retired. Some of those clients live independently and have full-time jobs.

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neologist wrote:

Chumly almost took me up on that once.

"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."(Eph 4:31-32)

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And then there's these bible verses that gets in the way of "god is love."

- Exodus 35:2 - God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.
- Leviticus 20:13 - God demands the death of homosexuals.
- Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

I'm just wondering what the penalty for not following god's word is?

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Chumly wrote:

neologist wrote:
Chumly almost took me up on that once.
"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."(Eph 4:31-32)

So haven't I been good to you Chumly?

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You forgot CI.... Good Christians don't worry about all that... it's in the *old* testament. They follow (yeah right) the *new* one.

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neologist wrote:

Chumly wrote:
neologist wrote:
Chumly almost took me up on that once.
"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."(Eph 4:31-32)
So haven't I been good to you Chumly?

A higher power will decide that come judgment.

In the meantime, assuaging transference will lessen the present inappropriate repetition that would have characterized an important relationship in your childhood.

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But isn't the "god created the earth..." in the "old" testament? If god didn't create the earth and all that's within it, who created earth?

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Chumly wrote:

neologist wrote:
Chumly wrote:
neologist wrote:
Chumly almost took me up on that once.
"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."(Eph 4:31-32)
So haven't I been good to you Chumly?
A higher power will decide that come judgment.

In the meantime, assuaging transference will lessen the present inappropriate repetition that would have characterized an important relationship in your childhood.

Ahh! Another erudite obfuscation from the silver pen of Chumly. Care to translate?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

But isn't the "god created the earth..." in the "old" testament? If god didn't create the earth and all that's within it, who created earth?

Could you rephrase?

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Just out of interest:

Quote:

A new and powerful computer model shortens the theoretical time it takes to build a giant planet to as little as 300 years. The result could help explain mysteries of our solar system as well as some of the hundred or so planets found around other stars.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planets_quickly_021129.html

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neo, As you well know, I'm not a student of the bible, and I usually paraphrase without losing the idea.

It seems many christians like to ignore verses in the bible that doesn't fit their own beliefs, then use a hundred different explanations to wiggle out of some simple meaning verses by rationalizing. +

I'm sure some of the first verses in the first book of the bible tells about god's creation of earth and all that's within it.

When we point out verses in the old testament that god demands the killing of homosexuals, unruly teenagers, homosexuals, and nonvirgin wives, they are not considered parts of the bible. Some magic wand told them it doesn't need to be considered as god's word.

Rather confusing, isn't it?

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neologist wrote:

Care to translate?

You ask: ..haven't I been good to you? I tease "A higher power will decide that come judgment."

OK, given your belief system encompasses this judgment day, who am I to say if you have been "good"? I get to poke a bit of fun at the concept of a judgment day and the moral definition of "good" in light of said judgment day.

Now as to "assuaging transference" I teased you that the reason you have brought up on a number of occasions my missing our coffee rendezvous, is because of transference. That being, the reason you have repeatedly posted my missing our coffee rendezvous is because this repetition characterized an important relationship in your childhood probably with your parents, perhaps centered around guilt.

See here

Wikipediat wrote:

Transference is a phenomenon in psychology characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings for one person to another. One definition of transference is "the inappropriate repetition in the present of a relationship that was important in a person's childhood."[1] Another definition is "the redirection of feelings and desires and esp. of those unconsciously retained from childhood toward a new object."[2] Still another definition is "a reproduction of emotions relating to repressed experiences, esp. of childhood, and the substitution of another person . . . for the original object of the repressed impulses."[3] Transference was first described by Sigmund Freud, who acknowledged its importance for psychoanalysis for better understanding of the patient's feelings.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Rather confusing, isn't it?

Yep!

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cicerone imposter wrote:

neo, As you well know, I'm not a student of the bible, and I usually paraphrase without losing the idea.

It seems many christians like to ignore verses in the bible that doesn't fit their own beliefs, then use a hundred different explanations to wiggle out of some simple meaning verses by rationalizing. +

I'm sure some of the first verses in the first book of the bible tells about god's creation of earth and all that's within it.

When we point out verses in the old testament that god demands the killing of homosexuals, unruly teenagers, homosexuals, and nonvirgin wives, they are not considered parts of the bible. Some magic wand told them it doesn't need to be considered as god's word.

Rather confusing, isn't it?

The OT seems to be an embarrassment to some nominal christians because they fail to understand the reasons for the severity of the law which was in place to point the way to Christ. (According to the bible, that is.)

In fact, this failure to understand the OT is the sum and substance of my fun-o-rama in the slavery thread.

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It's not that they ignore the old testament... they just ignore the parts they don't like. Like in leviticus it says that eating shellfish is an abomination (along with 20 other things people do every day). They ignore that part... but they really seem to like the part that condemns homos.

The bible... is complete bullshit. Personally, I think it should be considered a weapon of mass destruction.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

Real... you apparently don't understand what I'm saying.

Your example is of people who *can* but choose not to car for themselves. That is completely different from a person that is physically unable to do so.

And yes, we can predict in many cases what a child will and will not be able to do. Like I said before, go look up some of these things before you draw these idiotic comparisons.

And I never brought into question anyone's "productivity" I spoke of ability to survive on one's own.

Like it or not, one's productivity is closely linked to one's ability to survive.

Children who are born healthy will still not be able to survive 'on their own' for many years.

Is a child with asthma 'unable' to survive 'on their own' since they will require medicine?

How about a diabetic?

Kidney failure?

Exactly HOW severe must one's illness or disability be before you conclude that death is the best therapy for this individual?

Do you measure it in dollars?

And how do you know that a few years after you kill them a cure won't be found?

If society had always taken your 'kill the ill' approach, how many people who are now successfully overcoming various illnesses and disabilities would be dead instead because the parents just didn't want to be bothered with them?

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

It's not that they ignore the old testament... they just ignore the parts they don't like. Like in leviticus it says that eating shellfish is an abomination (along with 20 other things people do every day). They ignore that part... but they really seem to like the part that condemns homos.

The bible... is complete bullshit. Personally, I think it should be considered a weapon of mass destruction.

Abortion is a weapon of mass destruction.

It literally is the cause of death for millions each year.

The same is not true of the Bible.

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Actually, your christian god is a purveyor of mass destruction; the world flood. Anybody want to top that one?

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RL... you are taking what I say completely out of context. I'm sure you know that. This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself. There is a difference between having asthima or a learning disability and having a several malformation caused by trisomy-13, -18, -21 or any of the other chromosomal disorders.

You are right, a perfectly healthy child cannot care for himself for several years. But after those few years, he CAN. The children I mention have an extraordinarily small chance to even live to see their teen years. If they do manage that, it is only because of the mass of technology and constant care they get. What happens when their parents are gone? Are you going to take care of them? Do you have ANY idea what the cost is for these people to maintain all of this care?

I've said it twice so far: Before you draw more of these stupid, completely different, comparisons... GO READ.

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real life wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:
It's not that they ignore the old testament... they just ignore the parts they don't like. Like in leviticus it says that eating shellfish is an abomination (along with 20 other things people do every day). They ignore that part... but they really seem to like the part that condemns homos.

The bible... is complete bullshit. Personally, I think it should be considered a weapon of mass destruction.

Abortion is a weapon of mass destruction.

It literally is the cause of death for millions each year.

The same is not true of the Bible.

Umm... let's see... the crusades? the inquisition? 9/11? the current war in iraq?

Religion causes death wherever it is let free.

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When Does Life Begin?

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