When Does Life Begin?

Quote:

So exactly HOW 'ill' or 'defective' must one be before you have no qualms killing them or allowing them to be killed?

Well, I suppose if you take the argument all the way.... You could say that any deformation that would render the child unable to care for himself or survive on his own. Of course, unlike you, I don't see things as black-and-white as that...

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"Should" is an ethical question (or in your case I'll surmise a Christian moral one) whereas "is" is a factual question thusly:

That brings up the question of whether the fertilized egg should be considered a human life.

That brings up the question of whether the fertilized egg is a de facto human being.

They are not the same question.

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Chumly wrote:

"Should" is an ethical question (or in your case I'll surmise a Christian moral one) whereas "is" is a factual question thusly:

That brings up the question of whether the fertilized egg should be considered a human life.

That brings up the question of whether the fertilized egg is a de facto human being.

They are not the same question.

Well, in that case, dear Chumly, I believe you should be aware of your mortality before you undertake to drive your motorcyle at 150 mph.

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Providence it might seem, has imposed inclement weather to protect me from myself, thus saving me to dialogue with you.

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Chumly wrote:

Providence it might seem, has imposed inclement weather to protect me from myself, thus saving me to dialogue with you.

Weather ain't so great here, either. The Bite of Seattle could be a washout.

But should your weather clear up, you might wish to consider my caution.

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I've never heard of the Bite of Seattle till I Goggled it right now, looks fun!

There have been quite a number of serious accidents / deaths on motorcycles over the last few years, I try and reduce the risks with technology (anti-lock brakes / linked brakes / tires / etc) and skills (panic braking / maneuvering / etc)

I have even been able to apply some of my motorcycle skills (panic braking and maneuvering) to reduce risks when posting on A2K.

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Good idea

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As everyone knows, I'm not good at using my brakes. LOL

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"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom"

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Wow Neo - I should have figured your location to mean here in Seattle. I'm in Seattle right now. Well Everett to be exact. Same I didn't figure it out earlier, we could have had some coffee. I went down to good ole Pike's market this afternoon to see the Bite of Seattle for myself. I think that's what I saw anyway. Too bad, like I said, I'm headed out to Montana tomorrow. It looks like good weather comes as I leave though.

back on the subject though. I've done some thought on this notion of "intervention" as it has been referenced recently in this thread. After some time I'm left wondering what the difference is between intervention pre and post birth.

It would seem that the current dialogue would have pro-lifers to support "non-intervention," a stance which would classify abortion as being wrong. I'm just wondering if then it is so wrong for a mother to continue her stance of non'intervention post delivery of a baby; that is to not interfer or assist the newborn at all.

I imagine that most people, most rational people at least, would find it easily agreeable that a born child should have assistance post birth. Someone seems to have to interfer to have the child live.

It would appear that interference is normal, IMO.

T
K
O

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TK; the Bite of Seattle is staged at Seattle Center and usually has about a half million attendance over 3 days. The weather cut that in half this year, so if you wound up at Pike Place Market, you found many of the same vendors, the same Seattle ambiance (whatever that is) and had the benefit of a roof overhead.

Your idea about intervention before/after birth is valid, but I hope obvious to any parent.

My coffee hangout is the Starbucks on the corner of HWY 99 and 220th SW in Edmonds, WA. Too bad we didn't figure this out earlier. I have a standing offer to buy the first coffee for any a2ker who isn't afraid that a Jehovah's Witness might bite them. Laughing

Chumly almost took me up on that once.

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

Quote:
So exactly HOW 'ill' or 'defective' must one be before you have no qualms killing them or allowing them to be killed?

Well, I suppose if you take the argument all the way.... You could say that any deformation that would render the child unable to care for himself or survive on his own. Of course, unlike you, I don't see things as black-and-white as that...

So if we see two middle-aged men----

one was born perfectly healthy but dropped out of school, has never held a job and lives off his mother's pension.

The other was born blind but is a Grammy award winning musician and successful businessman.

How did you know while they were both in the womb which one would be 'unable' to care for himself or survive on his own?

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real life wrote:

USAFHokie80 wrote:
Quote:
So exactly HOW 'ill' or 'defective' must one be before you have no qualms killing them or allowing them to be killed?

Well, I suppose if you take the argument all the way.... You could say that any deformation that would render the child unable to care for himself or survive on his own. Of course, unlike you, I don't see things as black-and-white as that...

So if we see two middle-aged men----

one was born perfectly healthy but dropped out of school, has never held a job and lives off his mother's pension.

The other was born blind but is a Grammy award winning musician and successful businessman.

How did you know while they were both in the womb which one would be 'unable' to care for himself or survive on his own?

Your example is crap - for lack of a better term. Regardless of their career path, these people have the ability to care for themselves. There are some genetic disorders (see the ones I've already mentioned) that will require a child have CONSTANT medical attention. And that is supposing they even live past 4 or 5 years of age.

Before you bother picking apart my reasoning here, why don't you go look up some of these chromosomal disorders? That would save us both a lot of typing.

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Hokie,

Your vague reference to someone who will be (as if you could tell the future Rolling Eyes

) 'unable' to care for himself is what gets you into trouble here.

You are completely unable to predict who will be 'unable' to care for themselves.

The example of the healthy middle-aged slacker is a case in point. Is he 'unable' to care for himself simply because he doesn't?

Many handicapped persons grow up to be productive members of society.

And is one's productivity the only reason that they have a right to live? Must one prove oneself healthy and productive or forfeit his life?

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real, You're now relating the zygote to somebody that's already born and grown into adulthood? How analytical about you! Where do you dream up all this crap?

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Real... you apparently don't understand what I'm saying.

Your example is of people who *can* but choose not to car for themselves. That is completely different from a person that is physically unable to do so.

And yes, we can predict in many cases what a child will and will not be able to do. Like I said before, go look up some of these things before you draw these idiotic comparisons.

And I never brought into question anyone's "productivity" I spoke of ability to survive on one's own.

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Suppose Mrs Hawkins had known of Stephen's looming Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, what might she have done?

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That would be Mrs Hawkin's choice, isn't it? What concern or involvement do you have with all similar situations? Will you be there to assist in the care and donate your money for their care?

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Is your lip service what you consider your "high moral grounds?"

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cicerone imposter wrote:

That would be Mrs Hawkin's choice, isn't it? What concern or involvement do you have with all similar situations? Will you be there to assist in the care and donate your money for their care?

Just making a point about the sort of contribution a 'handicapped person might make. And I believe Mr Hawkins describes himself as 'lucky.'

Lucky to have been born before the free choice movement?

Dunno. Never asked.

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When Does Life Begin?

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