When Does Life Begin?

An alarming and increasing number of teenagers attempt and succeed at suicide. Suicide is now the third highest cause of death in adolescents, and children as young as five have been reported to have committed suicide. It is also probable that suicidal statistics for teens are underreported, as they might overlook those whose reckless or dangerous behavior resulted in death, or those in which the cause can not be definitely identified.

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Teenagers and Suicide
By Judy Shepps Battle

Someone, somewhere, commits suicide every 18 minutes.

Every day 80 Americans take their own lives and more than 1,900 are seen in hospital emergency rooms for self-inflicted injury. A disproportionate number are youngsters between the ages of 12 and 17.

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Interesting stuff CI, we'll see if Neo can extricate himself from the bilge.

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baddog1 wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
real, It doesn't matter to me "when" a fetus is viable; it's none of my business what the woman decides. ..

Then why are you interjecting your opinion on here?

This thread servs not to inflence anyone who is making a choice as much as it is to dbate the finer ethical and moral details associated with abortion and stem cell cultivation.

Having an opinion is never irrelevant, knowing that one's opinion is isolated from what should be another's choice is perfectly acceptable and requires a great deal of restraint.

The idea here is that in the free market place of ideas, we can come together and test our ideas against other's ideas. A criteria Should typically be created first; something to establish what is a pass and what is a fail.

RL, now has for some several months just ignored my posts, because I refused to let him brush off that fact that he had failed to meet my burden of evidence that choice should be in the domian of the Government, further he failed several criteria of his own. The gravity of this compounded by the fact the RL has a plentiful opportunity to argue with others in these threads has now led us to where we are now.

I am reminded of a the 5 year old who covers their eyes and insists that you can't see him, because he can't see you.

Morally, abortion can mean what ever it means to you. Morallity is a subjective criteria. It's not universal and it fails as a means to legislate how we approach this issue.

Ethically, Pro-Lifers are challenged to provide any claim to another's choice, so they try and institute that the government should be the one who chooses. This of course coupled with the assumption that the government would choose as they do. Which ultimatle resolves to not really thinking that the government should choose, but a back door way to assert a set of morals. See above.

Chumly has it right on the head.

Until I hear the arguement, and have the chance to challenge it, as to why anyone other than the mother (couple) and the docter should have any say in their pregnacy and related issues, the issue of abortion can't even begin to be addressed. Further the more real and complex issues that are far worse and of much more concern to me: the welfare of those already alive.

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whats worse, a life never achieved, or life achieved with a parent who doesnt want or cant support her child? i doubt theres enough parents out there looking for children to warrant forcing someone to keep an unborn child and putting it up for adoption..

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Chumly wrote:

What exactly do you mean by "human being"?

What exactly do you mean by "what"?

What exactly do you mean by "do"?

What exactly do you mean by "you"?

What exactly do you mean by "by"?

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Do you think it's obvious when an entity qualifies as a human being?

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Chumly wrote:

Do you think it's obvious when an entity qualifies as a human being?

If you believe the unborn is NOT human, can you tell us what species you think it is?

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real life wrote:

Chumly wrote:
Do you think it's obvious when an entity qualifies as a human being?

If you believe the unborn is NOT human, can you tell us what species you think it is?

This is RL, affraid to answer your question. I don't see you needing to afford courtesy to him and answer his question until your's is answered.

RL, nobody is making that claim, why would anyone defend it?

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I believe it was put best when someone said:

"A seed is not a tree."

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OGIONIK wrote:

whats worse, a life never achieved, or life achieved with a parent who doesnt want or cant support her child? i doubt theres enough parents out there looking for children to warrant forcing someone to keep an unborn child and putting it up for adoption..

What's better -- giving them a chance, or killing them?

Just because you believe that someone else is 'better off dead' doesn't mean they would agree.

Should we just kill off all children in orphanages around the world if no one adopts them today?

Or tomorrow?

How long should we wait?

Can't expect us to wait forever before we do 'em in, now can you?

What an absurd rationale for abortion.

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real life wrote:

OGIONIK wrote:
whats worse, a life never achieved, or life achieved with a parent who doesnt want or cant support her child? i doubt theres enough parents out there looking for children to warrant forcing someone to keep an unborn child and putting it up for adoption..

What's better -- giving them a chance, or killing them?

Just because you believe that someone else is 'better off dead' doesn't mean they would agree.

Should we just kill off all children in orphanages around the world if no one adopts them today?

Or tomorrow?

How long should we wait?

Can't expect us to wait forever before we do 'em in, now can you?

What an absurd rationale for abortion.

You clown.

You can't expect anyone to take you serious. Keeping abortion legal does not lead us down the path of killing those in orphanages. Reality check: It is legal, and we aren't killing orphans. You're an idiot.

Face it, you have No case as to why abortion is any of your bussiness. Even if you were a woman, and pregnant, AND you were to choose to keep your child, you'd still be protected by the fact that you CHOOSE to keep your child as opposed to the state making that choice for you.

Remember that in some parts of the world the state does choose for you, and they often DON'T choose to keep a child.

Pro-choice is not pro-abortion.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Teenagers and Suicide
By Judy Shepps Battle

Someone, somewhere, commits suicide every 18 minutes.

Every day 80 Americans take their own lives and more than 1,900 are seen in hospital emergency rooms for self-inflicted injury. A disproportionate number are youngsters between the ages of 12 and 17.

ci: Since the subject of teenagers, suicide and abortion is so dear to you - please have a read:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/abortion_and_suicide.asp

and:

"Teens are generally at a higher risk for both suicide and abortion. In a survey of teenaged girls, researchers at U of MN found that the rate of attempted suicide in the six months prior to the study increased 10 fold-from 0.4% for girls who had not aborted to 4% for teens who had aborted in the previous six months." from: http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/554/26/

and:

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/abortion-suicide.htm

BD1

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baddog, Teenage suicide is not "dear" to me. It's only in response to how some view "life." Some people value the fetus more than those already alive. Just showing the hypocrisy.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

baddog, Teenage suicide is not "dear" to me. It's only in response to how some view "life." Some people value the fetus more than those already alive. Just showing the hypocrisy.

You listed 2 separate posts in red ink about teen suicide on this thread. That indicates to me that you are passionate about teen suicide.

You are clearly for abortion if Mommy chooses to have one.

I presented data from a state university that indicates teen suicide increases ten-fold when abortion is involved.

And you speak of someone elses hypocrisy. Sad

I don't get it.

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baddog, You seem to ignore my explanations with more stupid questions. Go find another stooge.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

baddog, You seem to ignore my explanations with more stupid questions. Go find another stooge.

OUCH!! :wink:

What questions are you referring to?

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baddog1 wrote:

"Teens are generally at a higher risk for both suicide and abortion. In a survey of teenaged girls, researchers at U of MN found that the rate of attempted suicide in the six months prior to the study increased 10 fold-from 0.4% for girls who had not aborted to 4% for teens who had aborted in the previous six months." from: http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/554/26/

This statistic is not surprising. Abortion is a pretty awful thing to go through especially at that age. What this statistic ignores, however, is the impact that banning abortion outright would have on the teen suicide (and accidental death) rate. They would like us to assume that it would drop back to 0.4%? I think not.

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Eorl wrote:

baddog1 wrote:

"Teens are generally at a higher risk for both suicide and abortion. In a survey of teenaged girls, researchers at U of MN found that the rate of attempted suicide in the six months prior to the study increased 10 fold-from 0.4% for girls who had not aborted to 4% for teens who had aborted in the previous six months." from: http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/554/26/

This statistic is not surprising. Abortion is a pretty awful thing to go through especially at that age. What this statistic ignores, however, is the impact that banning abortion outright would have on the teen suicide (and accidental death) rate. They would like us to assume that it would drop back to 0.4%? I think not.

Perhaps - and your point is well taken.

I also wonder what the suicide rate would be if more responsible sexual choices were made, what the suicide rate is for teens (and others) who choose to not abort and offer their children for adoption...

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Eorl wrote:

baddog1 wrote:

"Teens are generally at a higher risk for both suicide and abortion. In a survey of teenaged girls, researchers at U of MN found that the rate of attempted suicide in the six months prior to the study increased 10 fold-from 0.4% for girls who had not aborted to 4% for teens who had aborted in the previous six months." from: http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/554/26/

This statistic is not surprising. Abortion is a pretty awful thing to go through especially at that age. What this statistic ignores, however, is the impact that banning abortion outright would have on the teen suicide (and accidental death) rate. They would like us to assume that it would drop back to 0.4%? I think not.

Other than your own bias in protecting the image and legitimacy of abortion and the abortion industry, why do you think not?

A ten-fold difference is pretty significant so you would have to come up with some other factor that would explain the difference.

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