When Does Life Begin?

Bartikus wrote:

Anyone who draws a comparison between Deathrow inmates and unborn children to help justify the killing of the unborn is far beyond my understanding. I'm afraid to listen to anymore of it.

Even an unwanted dog can get a burial.....BY LAW! It's the humane thing to do don't you know misimi? The unwanted child? the dumpster or the garbage disposal!

If that makes sense then comparing murderers to the unborn might too.

The fear of listening to the comparison of taking of an adult life to the decision to abort a pregnancy is, to me, the epitome of hypocrisy. What are you afraid of?

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Intrepid wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
Intrepid,

Since the question of this thread has been answered, it isn't a meaningful thread anymore. Additionally, since you're acting childish, it becomes apparent that a topic needs to be created.

I've created a new thread to talk about the issues.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2941672#2941672

Come or don't come, I don't care. I'm not going to waste my time putting thought into posts in this thread only to have your contempt an non-participation.

You don't like to address my points, and you're hiding behind the title of this thread. That kind of dodging is just annoying.

T
K
O

Seems that your new thread is not too popular. No replies and only 2 peeks per hour since you posted. It seems that your point may have fallen through the cracks.

Come on, Intrepid. That comment is beneath you.

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I know. A moment of madness perhaps?

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Feeding frenzy?

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JPB wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
Anyone who draws a comparison between Deathrow inmates and unborn children to help justify the killing of the unborn is far beyond my understanding. I'm afraid to listen to anymore of it.

Even an unwanted dog can get a burial.....BY LAW! It's the humane thing to do don't you know misimi? The unwanted child? the dumpster or the garbage disposal!

If that makes sense then comparing murderers to the unborn might too.

The fear of listening to the comparison of taking of an adult life to the decision to abort a pregnancy is, to me, the epitome of hypocrisy. What are you afraid of?

The comparison is an adult life that murdered another (being killed) with an unborn human life who has done nothing (being killed).

Part of the comparison could also be in how they died. Apparently there are nicer ways to die as Diest has pointed out..

Deathrow murderers are mostly given a lethal injection with special consideration as to the amount of pain and suffering they may feel. Minimizing any unneccesary pain and suffering is considered for a killer.

Which I am all FOR!

What considerations are given to the unborn fetus facing abortion? Is the question of whether it will suffer even asked and addressed by the abortionist? Is the fetus given sedation and put to sleep before the act is committed as the murderer is?

Could not the unborn (who has done nothing) be given at least the same amount of consideration as a.....MURDERER? Do abortion clinics do so?

NO!

Bovines, Canines, Felines etc. are given even more considerations than an unborn human being.

And knowing that human life begins at conception as Diest and CI will agree.....That's strikes me as just more than a bit odd. I am even more perplexed when others (who say life begins at conception) are not struck by this!

What say you? Do you still sense hypocrisy...I know I do! And yes it's disturbing.

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You are all For State sanctioned killing on behalf of the People (which includes you and me) and yet object to an individual and personal decision to abort a fetus by someone whose circumstances you know absolutely nothing about?

Sorry, I'd much rather spend my energies making sure every woman and girl of child bearing age has adequate education and resources to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with. The decision to abort a pregnancy is a most heart-wrenching one and I thank god it's a decision I've never had to face. I don't imagine I could ever decide to abort a pregnancy, but it most certainly should be my decision and not yours.

By the same token, I would in all likelihood be excused from a jury in a capital murder case because I could never decide to put a person to death on behalf of the People (you and me). I feel the guilt associated with murder every time a person is put to death on my behalf. Others, however, have no such qualms and it is their decision to make to sit on those juries, not mine. I would rather spend my energies dealing with societal issues that drive up crime rates to begin with and attempt to reduce the number of murders.

In a similar fashion, I would not be able to go to war and kill a human being simply because I was ordered to do so. Others can participate in war and can look at the killing of innocent civilians and children as 'unfortunate collateral damage'. I could not do so but that is their decision, not mine. I would rather spend my energies trying to understand the position of my supposed enemies through dialogue rather that bullets. It's hard to understand a dead man.

So, yes, I continue to see hypocrisy in your statements that you are all For compassionate killing on behalf of you and me (how noble of you!) but unable to mind your own business when it comes to a woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy when that pregnancy has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Do you accept the death of civilians and children in war as unfortunate but necessary as well?

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JPB wrote:

You are all For State sanctioned killing on behalf of the People (which includes you and me) and yet object to an individual and personal decision to abort a fetus by someone whose circumstances you know absolutely nothing about?

Sorry, I'd much rather spend my energies making sure every woman and girl of child bearing age has adequate education and resources to prevent unwanted pregnancies to begin with. The decision to abort a pregnancy is a most heart-wrenching one and I thank god it's a decision I've never had to face. I don't imagine I could ever decide to abort a pregnancy, but it most certainly should be my decision and not yours.

By the same token, I would in all likelihood be excused from a jury in a capital murder case because I could never decide to put a person to death on behalf of the People (you and me). I feel the guilt associated with murder every time a person is put to death on my behalf. Others, however, have no such qualms and it is their decision to make to sit on those juries, not mine. I would rather spend my energies dealing with societal issues that drive up crime rates to begin with and attempt to reduce the number of murders.

In a similar fashion, I would not be able to go to war and kill a human being simply because I was ordered to do so. Others can participate in war and can look at the killing of innocent civilians and children as 'unfortunate collateral damage'. I could not do so but that is their decision, not mine. I would rather spend my energies trying to understand the position of my supposed enemies through dialogue rather that bullets. It's hard to understand a dead man.

So, yes, I continue to see hypocrisy in your statements that you are all For compassionate killing on behalf of you and me (how noble of you!) but unable to mind your own business when it comes to a woman's decision to terminate a pregnancy when that pregnancy has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Do you accept the death of civilians and children in war as unfortunate but necessary as well?

If you consider that a "pregnancy" is aborted (not a human life) - how can you use the state sanctioned killing of a murderer as being hypocrtitical? Clearly, your intent is to claim that a human life is not being aborted. Please explain.

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JPB,

Do you understand the difference between someone who is executed --

--after being tried by a jury of their peers
--had legal representation
--had the opportunity to face and refute their accuser's charges
--had the full court's attention to give every detail of why they should be considered innocent
--had the chance to present evidence in their own behalf , examine and cross-examine witnesses
--been convicted of a heinous crime
--had the right to numerous appeals in front of a different judge or panel of judges
--had the right to appeal to the governor of the state
--and after many years of life subsequent to the crime they are finally executed.........

.......and someone who has NONE of these opportunities to save their own life, but dies in an abortuary while someone is paid to do the deed with the full sanction of the law?

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You confuse my position.....IF a murderer MUST be killed....it should be done with as little PAIN and SUFFERING as possible. Do you agree? It's humane right?

How's is it wrong to feel the same way about the unborn. How is that prying into a woman's decision? Asking why the unborn do not get humane treatment is not prying. Anymore than someone asking for humane treatment of convicts or animals.

Why do people stick their nose into others business regarding Bovine's, Canine's and Feline's when it is not their animals....and has nothing to do with them.....and that's A-ok?

Three good points in a row here for you from baddog ,RL, and myself.

Can you address them? Will you? We shall see..Show us some nobility.

My guess is you will not address them directly since my original points were never addressed. Why would you start now JPB?.

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JPB wrote:

Do you accept the death of civilians and children in war as unfortunate but necessary as well?

Example of a war:

Hitler! Look at your question and answer. Hitler needed to be stopped did'nt he? After all....he was killing civilians and children by the MILLIONS.

War was the only way to stop him......because of HIM!

P.S The MILLIONS of civilians and children Hitler was wiping out.....was'nt afforded any of these either:

--after being tried by a jury of their peers
--had legal representation
--had the opportunity to face and refute their accuser's charges
--had the full court's attention to give every detail of why they should be considered innocent
--had the chance to present evidence in their own behalf , examine and cross-examine witnesses
--been convicted of a heinous crime
--had the right to numerous appeals in front of a different judge or panel of judges
--had the right to appeal to the governor of the state
--and after many years of life subsequent to the crime they are finally executed.........

What if it was.....YOU? Noble one?

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Bartikus wrote:

You confuse my position.....IF a murderer MUST be killed....it should be done with as little PAIN and SUFFERING as possible. Do you agree? It's humane right?

How's is it wrong to feel the same way about the unborn. How is that prying into a woman's decision? Asking why the unborn do not get humane treatment is not prying. Anymore than someone asking for humane treatment of convicts or animals.

Why do people stick their nose into others business regarding Bovine's, Canine's and Feline's when it is not their animals....and has nothing to do with them.....and that's A-ok?

Three good points in a row here for you from baddog ,RL, and myself.

Can you address them? Will you? We shall see..Show us some nobility.

My guess is you will not address them directly since my original points were never addressed. Why would you start now JPB?.

Hi again Bartikus.

You're right about the dogs and other animals. And I think that murderers should be killed in front of anyone who wants to see it and the family of the one who was killed should get to choose how it's done. I guess in that way, I'm a little like the people who have abortions. Maybe I shouldn't feel that way but I do.

That fellow Real Life tells it like it is doen't he? And at first I didn't understand baddogs answer, but then I reread it and it makes sense. In other words - if someone says that an abortion is not killing a human life, then they can't very well use killing a guilty murderer (who is also a human life) as being hipocritical.

I have a question for JPB. (Actually it is baddogs original question.) When do you believe that human life begins? Sorry if you've already answered that question. There's a lot of answers to this thread and I don't have time to read all of them.

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You're right, Bartikus, I won't answer them directly. I generally stay out of these threads because they are a colossal waste of time. I can't imagine that the energies spent in these discussions has ever effected a change in a single individual's opinions. Those few times that I do join in are usually triggered by a statement that I can't let pass. In this case it was this response to TKO by baddog

TKO wrote:

Deathrow inmate's are human, yet our society for better or for worse finds it to be justifiable to end their life.
baddog wrote:
This is not a fair comparison and morally I'm sure you agree with that.

It wasn't addressed to me but no, I don't agree with that. I won't get into tit-for-tat with each of you -- the conversation would be useless.

I wish abortions didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not. Those who can afford them will fly to other places to get them, those who can't afford them will go to the alleys. Spending energies to make them illegal does Nothing to reduce the number of abortions.

Criminalizing abortion and putting abortionists on trial as murderers so that they can be executed on behalf of the People is totally unpalatable to me. The idea that a murderer MUST ever be killed puts you on the same page as the abortionist in my view.

I notice none of you discuss the acceptable collateral damage of innocent civilians and children of wartime. But that's not surprising either. The hypocrisy of your desire to spend your energies on criminalizing an act to no end other than making yourself feel better about it won't be impacted by anything that I or anyone else says. I'll save my breath and energy and put them to better use.

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JPB wrote:

You're right, Bartikus, I won't answer them directly. I generally stay out of these threads because they are a colossal waste of time.

The idea that a murderer MUST ever be killed puts you on the same page as the abortionist in my view.

. I'll save my breath and energy and put them to better use.

You will respond to a question not posed to you but a question posed to you ....you will not address. I was called a coward for that. Not a very noble title is it?

Who said murderers MUST be killed? Many are not!

It puts me on the same page as the abortionist? Do you mean by providing a service for women?

Thanks! It's my pleasure and I do so without compensation. Very Happy

Are millions of men, women and children being killed and tortured at the hands of Hitler acceptable JPB? Since you want to talk of what is acceptable in war....I'm sure you will answer.

How do you KNOW abortions will occur in equal numbers (legal or not) JPB?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1910542/posts

Would other crime rates stay the same?

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JPB wrote:

You're right, Bartikus, I won't answer them directly. I generally stay out of these threads because they are a colossal waste of time. I can't imagine that the energies spent in these discussions has ever effected a change in a single individual's opinions. Those few times that I do join in are usually triggered by a statement that I can't let pass. In this case it was this response to TKO by baddog TKO had no problem with our exchange - why should you?

TKO wrote:
Deathrow inmate's are human, yet our society for better or for worse finds it to be justifiable to end their life.
baddog wrote:
This is not a fair comparison and morally I'm sure you agree with that.

It wasn't addressed to me but no, I don't agree with that. I won't get into tit-for-tat with each of you -- the conversation would be useless. Translation: "I want my opinion to be heard and will not discuss it with anyone because I know I'm right!"

I wish abortions didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not. Those who can afford them will fly to other places to get them, those who can't afford them will go to the alleys. Spending energies to make them illegal does Nothing to reduce the number of abortions.

Criminalizing abortion and putting abortionists on trial as murderers so that they can be executed on behalf of the People is totally unpalatable to me. Who suggested this? Bad analogy. The idea that a murderer MUST ever be killed puts you on the same page as the abortionist in my view. Yeah - we've heard this before. Spout -but not answer. Another bad analogy.

I notice none of you discuss the acceptable collateral damage of innocent civilians and children of wartime. Start a separate thread, Non Sequitur. But that's not surprising either. The hypocrisy of your desire to spend your energies on criminalizing an act to no end other than making yourself feel better about it won't be impacted by anything that I or anyone else says. I'll save my breath and energy and put them to better use.

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JPB wrote:

....these threads .....are a colossal waste of time. I can't imagine that the energies spent in these discussions has ever effected a change in a single individual's opinions......

Yes, and we'll see why in a moment.

JPB wrote:

....I wish abortions didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not. ......

I wish rape didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish kidnapping didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish cannibalism didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish child molestation didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish serial killing didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

Perhaps if some genuine , honest positions were put forward by pro-aborts, then constructive discussion would occur.

As it is, the best way to illustrate absurdity is by being absurd.

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Intrepid wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
Intrepid,

Since the question of this thread has been answered, it isn't a meaningful thread anymore. Additionally, since you're acting childish, it becomes apparent that a topic needs to be created.

I've created a new thread to talk about the issues.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2941672#2941672

Come or don't come, I don't care. I'm not going to waste my time putting thought into posts in this thread only to have your contempt an non-participation.

You don't like to address my points, and you're hiding behind the title of this thread. That kind of dodging is just annoying.

T
K
O

Seems that your new thread is not too popular. No replies and only 2 peeks per hour since you posted. It seems that your point may have fallen through the cracks.

Quite correct friend. The thread is not popular at all. However, as I look at the last few pages of this thread, I see my topics are quite popular.

Perfectly content to let other's talk about the related issues here? Seems like I was correct when I said this is the place to alk about it. I don't care whose name is on the thread, the issues need to be discussed, and you and your cheep date have been getting in the way of that.

The truth is that you have no problem putting on your little dance here in this thread, because if you can limit discussion on abortion to when life begins, you think that you can control the topic.

If you ever had to actually answer to the rest of the spectrum of questions, you just wouldn't be in control.

And if my posts are so easily rebutted, then there should be nothing to be affraid of correct?

You affraid of something?

T
K
O?

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real life wrote:

JPB wrote:
....these threads .....are a colossal waste of time. I can't imagine that the energies spent in these discussions has ever effected a change in a single individual's opinions......

Yes, and we'll see why in a moment.

JPB wrote:
....I wish abortions didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not. ......

I wish rape didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish kidnapping didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish cannibalism didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish child molestation didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish serial killing didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

Perhaps if some genuine , honest positions were put forward by pro-aborts, then constructive discussion would occur.

As it is, the best way to illustrate absurdity is by being absurd.

Hi RL.

I strongly doubt you will hear from JPB on this. You left an excellent illustration of the backward logic used by most pro aborts. The bottom line issue still remains as to when they feel that human life begins and what the value of that human life really is.

How's the Mrs?

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Hypocrite.

Intrepid wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
I don't care if you rebutte my posts, ponts, ideas... but you don't you give responces like...

Intrepid wrote:
This is too ridiculous to even merit an answer. Any thinking person would know thie answer to this.

You only picked out part of the post. What I posted was.....

Quote:
This is too ridiculous to even merit an answer. Any thinking person would know thie answer to this.
It now comes down to the degree of pain that the fetus feels during an abortion? What do you consider too much???????

This was in reponse to your post where you wrote:

Quote:
Lastly, because it seems to push some buttons, a death by cross is not profound in terms of pain. So many people have suffered without being on a cross. Their pain is easily comparrable and in some cases their death may exceed the cross in both pain and cruelty. I may not have been nailed to a cross. If I'm not qualified to talk about the pain or cruelty of dying on a cross, how are pro-lifers qualified to talk about the pain and cruelty of abortion?

This is where you were talking about abortion being ok because the pain to the unborn is not as bad as adult pain. Or, however you put it.

Deist wrote:

Quote:
Also, critiquing my spelling is pretty childish as a means to try and discredit my argument.

This was not pointed out to discredit your argument. You do that just fine on your own.

Diest TKO wrote:
Quote:
Bart - Your reading and comprehension score must be outstandingly low.

Now, THAT is childish.

Also, I have answered everything you have asked. Now, you say I won't answer your questions. It is possible that I may have missed one or two since you write two page posts to try and confuse and disarm those to whom you have disdain. Try asking one question at a time so that old guys like me can keep up.

In the same thread you try and jab me for the partial quote of your post (in red), you partial quote my post (in blue).

you seem to think that your non answer would suffice, it didn't and I called you on it. The great irony of this line of critisism from you is that you brought up the notion of NATURE not me. I used YOUR line of logic to construct the first half of my large post, which sadly remains mostly unanswered (thanks for the single reply baddog1 Smile

. If you disagree with the senarios I proposed, then you must accept that your logic does not follow.

T
K
O

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Bartikus wrote:

And knowing that human life begins at conception as Diest and CI will agree.....That's strikes me as just more than a bit odd. I am even more perplexed when others (who say life begins at conception) are not struck by this!

What say you? Do you still sense hypocrisy...I know I do! And yes it's disturbing.

I'll give you this: It certainly would be hypocracy, if the status of the unborn was the central issue in the issue. Sense I'm not allowed to make my case here, it really doesn't matter anyways.

You've decided I'm a hypocrite, and you've decided you won't acknoledge what the larger issue here is. How convieniant for you.

It's you and your ilk that lack an appreciation for other's point of view, not me.

T
K
O

P.s. - Enjoy the numbers game. I suppose it's been a while since you've had a choir. I really don't mind singing solo for the time being, just quit shutting off my mic. You affraid others would prefer my song to that of the choir?

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Bartikus wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
Who only cares about their own opinion again Intrepid?

T
K
Obviously.

Why? Just because I don't care to hear yours? DOH.

Your too funny! sad but mildly amusing.

http://www.brandens.net/files/Sounds/Answer/SPOCK.WAV

you don't care to hear anyone's who is different. It's not like you cared to hear CI's Chumly's or anyone else that posted beliefs contrary to yours.

You only want to hear things that re-enforce your beiefs. You aren't ready to defend your beliefs, and so it's really great to have others do it for you.

Coward.

T
K
O

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