When Does Life Begin?

baddog1 wrote:

real life wrote:
JPB wrote:
....these threads .....are a colossal waste of time. I can't imagine that the energies spent in these discussions has ever effected a change in a single individual's opinions......

Yes, and we'll see why in a moment.

JPB wrote:
....I wish abortions didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not. ......

I wish rape didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish kidnapping didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish cannibalism didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish child molestation didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish serial killing didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

Perhaps if some genuine , honest positions were put forward by pro-aborts, then constructive discussion would occur.

As it is, the best way to illustrate absurdity is by being absurd.

Hi RL.

I strongly doubt you will hear from JPB on this. You left an excellent illustration of the backward logic used by most pro aborts. The bottom line issue still remains as to when they feel that human life begins and what the value of that human life really is.

How's the Mrs?

Yes, pro-aborts must hold two contradictory views at the same time.

On one hand they must believe that abortion is of no moral consequence, i.e. 'removing' the unborn from the womb is no different than 'removing' a mole or a wart because there is no human being that is destroyed.

On the other hand, they almost always will say that they wish there were fewer abortions, that it was a very rare occurrence. Why should that be important if we are simply 'removing' a bit of flesh comparable to a mole?

Good to hear from you, as always.

Mrs. RL is doing very well , getting ready for the holidays. She thoroughly enjoys making things by hand to give as gifts, so she is busy and lovin' it.

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Taxes are morally acceptable, and I wish had less of them.

Exercise is morally acceptable, and I wish I had to do less of that.

Just because something is an ok moral decision doesn't make it a pleasant activity. I think that war can be morally justified, but I'd rather we not have to resort to them. I think abortion is more like that.

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real life wrote:

JPB wrote:
....I wish abortions didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not. ......

I wish rape didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish kidnapping didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish cannibalism didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish child molestation didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

I wish serial killing didn't exist but I realize they will occur in equal numbers whether they are legal or not.

Your comparissons are flawed (and according to Intrepid, they are in the wrong thread). They have been address at least 5 times in this thread my yours truly.

The laws that govern the acts you meantion are in place to uphold social order. Abortion does not threaten social order.

real life wrote:

Perhaps if some genuine , honest positions were put forward by pro-aborts, then constructive discussion would occur.

LOL. This from the person you repeatedly posts answered questions, and clearly addressed points.

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fungotheclown wrote:

Taxes are morally acceptable, and I wish had less of them.

Exercise is morally acceptable, and I wish I had to do less of that.

Just because something is an ok moral decision doesn't make it a pleasant activity. I think that war can be morally justified, but I'd rather we not have to resort to them. I think abortion is more like that.

hi fungo,

War is morally justifiable as self defense.

How is killing the innocent anything like defending oneself (or one's country) to the death against an aggressor?

Many states have laws under which you can be charged with murder of the unborn, (for instance, when you shoot a pregnant woman and both she and the baby die).

Do you agree that you should be held liable for two murders in this situation?

Why or why not?

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Diest TKO wrote:

Abortion does not threaten social order.

Interestingly enough though the things that do cause social disorder seem to have an effect on abortion rates.

It's a pretty strong case for the Pro-choice camp. It's a larger case for political reform of most of US domestic policy.

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First off, I don't think that self-defense is the only valid justification for war. I seriously doubt you do either. If you do, the American Revolutionary War was unjustified, because the colonists were not in danger. The American Civil War was not justified, because those who led and fought the majority of it were not in danger. Really, with the exception of a war with genocide as its goal, no war is justified, because simply accepting the aggressor's rule would almost certainly result in a lower loss of human life than resisting.

Second, I think the second murder charge as well as the legality of the abortion should be dependent on the level of the fetuses development. I agree that late-term and partial-birth abortions are wrong, but I don't think that a fertilized egg or early fetus is a human being. The nervous system is completely undeveloped, and it is completely dependent on the mother for survival. It's a parasite, one that we like, but a parasite nonetheless. It's closer to a leech or tapeworm than it is to a human being. In my eyes, the morning after pill is morally equivalent to tapeworm meds.

There are plenty of things that are morally justifiable, or even morally necessary, that we try to limit. Police actions, operations, laws in general, etc. You still haven't shown this this line of thinking to be a valid argument.

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fungotheclown wrote:

First off, I don't think that self-defense is the only valid justification for war. I seriously doubt you do either. If you do, the American Revolutionary War was unjustified, because the colonists were not in danger. The American Civil War was not justified, because those who led and fought the majority of it were not in danger. Really, with the exception of a war with genocide as its goal, no war is justified, because simply accepting the aggressor's rule would almost certainly result in a lower loss of human life than resisting.

Second, I think the second murder charge as well as the legality of the abortion should be dependent on the level of the fetuses development. I agree that late-term and partial-birth abortions are wrong, but I don't think that a fertilized egg or early fetus is a human being. The nervous system is completely undeveloped, and it is completely dependent on the mother for survival. It's a parasite, one that we like, but a parasite nonetheless. It's closer to a leech or tapeworm than it is to a human being. In my eyes, the morning after pill is morally equivalent to tapeworm meds.

There are plenty of things that are morally justifiable, or even morally necessary, that we try to limit. Police actions, operations, laws in general, etc. You still haven't shown this this line of thinking to be a valid argument.

It's like a parasite? Like a tapeworm? Your not postulating that you have discovered a new actual parasite are you?

Just that you think or feel that it is like a parasite right?

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Of course not. I'm not the first person to make the comparison either.

Umm... I guess that means you don't have an argument?

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fungotheclown wrote:

Of course not. I'm not the first person to make the comparison either.

Umm... I guess that means you don't have an argument?

So it's not a human being because it's like a parasite....and not that it is an actual parasite?

Then what is it actually?

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Bartikus wrote:

fungotheclown wrote:
Of course not. I'm not the first person to make the comparison either.

Umm... I guess that means you don't have an argument?

So it's not a human being because it's like a parasite....and not that it is an actual parasite?

Then what is it actually?

Are you taking batting lessons from Intrepid? Fungo didn't throw the pitch your swinging at.

The pitch he did throw however, you didn't swing at. Strike!.

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Bartikus wrote:

fungotheclown wrote:
It's a parasite, one that we like, but a parasite nonetheless. It's closer to a leech or tapeworm than it is to a human being. In my eyes, the morning after pill is morally equivalent to tapeworm meds.

Is this parasite listed in any biology book along with other parasites and tapeworms?

Can you find one biologist that agrees?

In your eyes what's that got to do with anything?

I thought I heard something. Maybe it's a parasite.

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"Parasite" might be a poor word for the unborn for the emotional responce it invokes, but "host" seems to be a extremely accurate description of the woman.

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http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/CID/journal/issues/v29n4/CIDv29p734/CIDv29p734.web.pdf

This link provides a list of human parasites...please identify the parasite of which you speak fungo.

Fun....go.....clown.

Human life begins when Diest? This question has been settled for Diest fungo.

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Bartikus wrote:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/CID/journal/issues/v29n4/CIDv29p734/CIDv29p734.web.pdf

This link provides a list of human parasites...please identify the parasite of which you speak fungo.

Fun....go.....clown.

Human life begins when Diest? This question has been settled for Diest fungo.

Sometime before the rights of the unborn become it's own.

You are attempting to pick and choose, what to swing at. you've focused on one part of Fungo's larger post, and have yet to address any of the rest.

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Diest TKO wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/CID/journal/issues/v29n4/CIDv29p734/CIDv29p734.web.pdf

This link provides a list of human parasites...please identify the parasite of which you speak fungo.

Fun....go.....clown.

Human life begins when Diest? This question has been settled for Diest fungo.

Sometime before the rights of the unborn become it's own.

You are attempting to pick and choose, what to swing at. you've focused on one part of Fungo's larger post, and have yet to address any of the rest.

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Every batter picks and chooses what to swing at. Who swings at every pitch? No one in the majors. You said human life begins at conception....Diest.

Don't get upset I did'nt swing at others but, this one gets clobbered. Besides you already called strike one on me.

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You pick and chose pitches in baseball, but if you want to be taken seriously in debate, you address the entirety of your opponents argument.

From Merriam-Websters Online

Quote:

Main Entry:
par·a·site Listen to the pronunciation of parasite
Pronunciation:
\ˈper-ə-ˌsīt, ˈpa-rə-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
Date:
1539

1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful

I think that a fetus fits number two pretty well.

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fungotheclown wrote:

You pick and chose pitches in baseball, but if you want to be taken seriously in debate, you address the entirety of your opponents argument.

From Merriam-Websters Online

Quote:

Main Entry:
par·a·site Listen to the pronunciation of parasite
Pronunciation:
\ˈper-ə-ˌsīt, ˈpa-rə-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle French, from Latin parasitus, from Greek parasitos, from para- + sitos grain, food
Date:
1539

1 : a person who exploits the hospitality of the rich and earns welcome by flattery
2 : an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful

I think that a fetus fits number two pretty well.

Can you find an actual biologist that agrees? In parasitism ...may be keywords. Strikes are called in baseball too...as well as balls, walks, etc.

Whats the scientific name of the parasite? Or did you just make one up? Are you a biologist? Funny how me not addressing your entire post was not pointed out until......now.

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Why are you focusing so much on the wording of my argument rather than the content? I chose the word parasite as a description, not a category, because it describes the behavior and neediness of a fetus. Let's get onto a more meaningful argument... unless you don't think you could defend your stance in one.

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Bartikus wrote:

Every batter picks and chooses what to swing at. Who swings at every pitch? No one in the majors.

A good pitcher sends them right over the plate. Even if you don't swing Bart it's a strike.

Bartikus wrote:

You said human life begins at conception....Diest.

Yep. Sure did. Life begins at conception and rights begin sometime after that. By my opinion, about 6 months later, by the laws of our country about 9 months, by your judgement one second. Your point?

Bartikus wrote:

Don't get upset I did'nt swing at others but, this one gets clobbered. Besides you already called strike one on me.

I'm not upset. I'm cheering for the pitcher. You did get a hit, it went foul. Being that it was just a part of sentance, and you didn't even make that strong of a case: Foul ball.

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fungotheclown wrote:

Why are you focusing so much on the wording of my argument rather than the content? I chose the word parasite as a description, not a category, because it describes the behavior and neediness of a fetus. Let's get onto a more meaningful argument... unless you don't think you could defend your stance in one.

fungotheclown wrote:

It's a parasite, one that we like, but a parasite nonetheless. It's closer to a leech or tapeworm than it is to a human being. In my eyes, the morning after pill is morally equivalent to tapeworm meds.

What are we debating about? Tapeworms and parasites or what? I'm not interested in debating over parasites.....have fun.

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