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THE DANGER OF GUN-FREE SCHOOL ZONES

 
 
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 09:17 am
OSD, you say that the founders were very explicit in discussing guns. I agree, and this is clear in the second amendment, which explicitly states that the right to bear is in the context of a militia.

The founders thought that guns only included muskets. Thus, if there is an unfettered right to bear, only muskets could be carried.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 11:08 am
Advocate wrote:
OSD, you say that the founders were very explicit in discussing guns. I agree, and this is clear in the second amendment, which explicitly states that the right to bear is in the context of a militia.

The founders thought that guns only included muskets. Thus, if there is an unfettered right to bear, only muskets could be carried.


Where the hell do you get that?? I mean, virtually all firearms were single-shot, black powder muzzle loaders at the time, and the word musket simply meant a long gun with an unrifled barrel. But they'd had rifles for a couple of centuries and they referred to those as rifles and not as muskets.

Other than that, the part of the sentence which refers to militias is merely a motivation; the part which says "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is the law, period.

Nobody would have agreed to the constitution itself without that proviso in it. There are only two or three political absolutes in this country, and the second amendment is one of them.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 11:20 am
Gunga, regarding the militia issue, virtually every court decision is opposed to your view.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 01:06 pm
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/yes_the_second_amendment_guara.html

es, the Second Amendment Guarantees an Individual Right to Bear Arms
By Pierre Atlas

On March 9, the Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia issued a groundbreaking ruling. It declared in a 2-1 decision that the Washington, D.C. ban on handgun possession in private homes, in effect since 1976, is unconstitutional. The court reached this conclusion after stating unequivocally that the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms applies to individuals and not just "the militia."

It is quite likely that this ruling will be appealed to Supreme Court, which hasn't offered an interpretation of the Second Amendment since 1939.

Appalled by the District Court ruling, the Washington Post editorialized that it will "give a new and dangerous meaning to the Second Amendment" that, if applied nationally, could imperil "every gun control law on the books."

The Post accused the National Rifle Association and the Bush administration's Justice Department of trying "to broadly reinterpret the Constitution so as to give individuals Second Amendment rights."

But actually, to argue that the Second Amendment does not apply to individuals is a reinterpretation of the Constitution and the original intent of the founders.

One of the major concerns of the anti-Federalists during the debate over the Constitution in 1787 was the fact that the new document lacked a Bill of Rights. In order to get the Constitution ratified, the framers promised to pass a Bill of Rights during the First Congress as amendments to the Constitution. The Second Amendment with its right to keep and bear arms became part of that package.

What was the original intent of the Second Amendment? Was the right to bear arms a collective right for militias, or an individual right for all citizens? The "Dissent of the Pennsylvania Minority," from the debates of 1787, is telling. This document speaks of the importance of amendments protecting freedom of speech and the press, the right of conscience, the right of habeas corpus and other fundamental freedoms we now take for granted in the Bill of Rights.

This is what the Pennsylvanians said about the right to bear arms in 1787: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and their own state and the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals."

Is the right to bear arms a collective right or an individual right? The answer, according to this document and the writings of others at the time of the founding, is both.

Many gun control advocates today argue that the use of the term "the people" means that the right to keep and bear arms is a collective right exclusively. This is utterly illogical. In the First Amendment, the rights of "the people" to peaceably assemble and to petition government do not require membership in a group in order to be exercised. To say that the drafters of the Bill of Rights had two distinct meanings for "the people" in the First and Second Amendments strains credulity.

The understanding that the Second Amendment applied to individual citizens was reiterated during the 1866 Congressional debates over the Freedmen's Bureau Bill and the proposed Fourteenth Amendment.

The Radical Republicans wanted to apply all the Bill of Rights protections to the recently freed former slaves in the South, America's newest citizens. The "freedmen," as they were called, needed the right to bear arms in particular in order to defend themselves against the white night-riders who were terrorizing the black population.

The statement of February 28, 1866 by Nevada Senator James Nye was fairly typical: "As citizens of the United States they have equal right to protection, and to keep and bear arms for self-defense."

The recent federal court ruling is not a radical reinterpretation of the Constitution and it should be upheld by the Supreme Court if appealed. It is about time we put to rest the canard that the right to keep and bear arms is not an individual right.

But that said, no right is absolute. All rights have limitations and come with responsibilities. Freedom of speech does not include the right to falsely cry "fire" in a crowded theater. Freedom of worship does not include the right to polygamy or human sacrifice. There is always tension between individual liberty and "the public good." A primary purpose of government in a democracy is to seek the best balance between the two. The founders believed this as strongly as they believed in protecting individual liberty itself.

Gun control advocates need to finally accept the fact that, yes, Americans do have the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. And gun rights advocates need to accept the fact that those rights are not unlimited--something the Pennsylvania anti-Federalists understood 220 years ago.
Pierre M. Atlas is an assistant professor of political science and director of the Franciscan Center for Global Studies at Marian College.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 01:11 pm
The impression I get is that leftists in this instance are so far out of touch that they will require protection from themselves in much the way that farmers have to protect domestic turkeys from drowning in the rain.

One lunatic with pistols got off nearly 200 shots and killed 33 people including himself and nobody was able to act or do anything other than run or hide in all the time it took to do that. What if it had been some sort of a three or five man AlQuaeda team? You don't think that schools, particularly "gun-free zone(TM)" schools are going to be on AQ's list of prime targets??

The gun-free zone thing is clearly going to have to be stopped.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 04:39 pm
30 000 gun related deaths a year, less than 200 of which are justifiable homicides by people protecting themselves. The only thing you're in touch with is your own dick you pathetic loser.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 06:07 pm
Wilso wrote:
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/ksc/lowres/kscn1076l.jpg

The 2nd Amendment does not warrant
that u will win every gunfight,
but at least u 'll have a fighting chance.

That 's better than helplessness ( except for the predator )
David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 06:11 pm
Wilso wrote:
30 000 gun related deaths a year, less than 200 of which are justifiable homicides by people protecting themselves. The only thing you're in touch with is your own dick you pathetic loser.

I dispute your statistics,
but even if thay were TRUE,
what counts to a victim is whether HE
can defend himself from the violence of criminals or animals,
and he needs to be well equipped for that job.

Its the same philosophy as keeping a fire extinguisher in your house.
David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 06:13 pm
Advocate wrote:
Gunga, regarding the militia issue, virtually every court decision is opposed to your view.

Baloney !

PROVE IT !

David
0 Replies
 
paull
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 07:00 pm
I can live in a society without guns, except those carried by law enforcement, and in rare cases, the military.

But I will be handing mine in LAST.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 07:13 pm
Wilso wrote:
30 000 gun related deaths a year, less than 200 of which are justifiable homicides by people protecting themselves. The only thing you're in touch with is your own dick you pathetic loser.


They say that in extreme cases, penis envy can be fatal; you might want to get yourself checked out.

Although this might be more of a case of logic envy... Other than that about half the fatalities are suicides and the rest afflict ordinary middle class people on about the same statistical basis as getting hit by lightning and, for that matter, are fairly miniscule compared to the numbers of lives saved by firearms annually.

In non "gun-free zone(TM)" places that is of course.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 08:02 pm
Advocate wrote:
Quote:
OSD, you say that the founders were very explicit in discussing guns.
I agree, and this is clear in the second amendment,
which explicitly states that the right to bear is in the context of a militia.

1. To begin with, u have lost your HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE.
The Constitution and its Bill of Rights were NOT written by
obsequious authoritarians. Thay were written by successful REVOLUTIONARIES
who had NOT forgotten the occasional need to overthrow government,
as thay had just DONE. The Supreme Law of the Land was written
by libertarian individualists, such their mindset was to the right of the NRA
as to individual freedom of self defense
. Both Federalists and Antifederalists argued
that the citizens must be armed so as to be able
to overthrow government, if that became necessary, as thay had found it to be.
Accordingly, thay did not want government to be able to limit
what weapons can be used by Revolutionaries to overthrow it.
The 2nd Amendment was offered as an eraser on the government pencil.


2. The militia of Article I Section 8 are obviously a selected militia
( i.e., a government militia ); not so the militia of the 2nd Amendment,
which is WELL REGULATED militia,
i.e., private groups like a volunteer fire dept.
In practical effect, it was EVERYONE who was able to lift a gun,
because of the emergencies by which thay 'd been beset in those times.


3. In studying the history and jurisprudential development of
the right to keep and bear arms, it should be borne in mind that when
the US Constitution and Bill of Rights were enacted, during the 17OOs,
there were NO POLICE anywhere in the USA, nor had police existed in
Colonial America, nor in England.
The concept of a police force first BEGAN during the 18OOs
(both in America and in England). Hence, during the 17OOs, if one were
attacked by a violent criminal, a predatory animal, or madman, it was as
imperative as it was paradigmatic that he have the means to handle the
situation himself, and this was the world that the Founding Fathers knew
when they drew the social and political contract that is the US Constitution.





DISPASSIONATE ANALYSIS OF THE AMENDMENT'S
SYNTACTICAL ARCHITECTURE
MAY BE FACILITATED BY THE FOLLOWING ANALOGY:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the
security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms
shall not be infringed" US Constitution, 2nd Amendment

ANALOGY: A well educated electorate being necessary to the
security of a free state, the right of THE PEOPLE
to keep and read books shall not be infringed.

1. Does this say that only voters have the right to read books?

2. Does this say "well educated" only by STATE GOVERNMENT colleges?

3. Does this say that only voters who are professors of state run colleges have the right to read books?

4. Does this say that if you miss an election, it's ok for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Books
to knock down your door and steal your books?

If criminals are willing to disregard the laws against ROBBERY;
if criminals are willing to ignore the laws against MURDER,
how can we convince them to obey "gun control" laws ?



Quote:

The founders thought that guns only included muskets.
Thus, if there is an unfettered right to bear, only muskets could be carried.

By your reasoning,
the NY Times has no freedom of the press
if it uses electric printing presses,
nor is there any freedom of speech on television,
nor does the 8th Amendment protect us from torture by electrical means,
because the Bill of Rights applies only to technology extant in the 1700s.
David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 08:09 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Wilso wrote:
30 000 gun related deaths a year, less than 200 of which are justifiable homicides by people protecting themselves. The only thing you're in touch with is your own dick you pathetic loser.


They say that in extreme cases, penis envy can be fatal; you might want to get yourself checked out.

Although this might be more of a case of logic envy...
Other than that about half the fatalities are suicides and the rest afflict ordinary middle class people on about the same statistical basis as getting hit by lightning and, for that matter, are fairly miniscule compared to the numbers of lives saved by firearms annually.

In non "gun-free zone(TM)" places that is of course.


That is an EXCELLENT POINT.

There are annually DOUBLE the number of suicides relative to homicides,
and everyone is fully within his rights to end his own life,
if such be his personal choice.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 08:18 pm
Advocate wrote:
OSD, you say that the founders were very explicit in discussing guns. I agree, and this is clear in the second amendment, which explicitly states that the right to bear is in the context of a militia.

.


We have had several IMPARTIAL respected experts on English grammar
analyze the 2nd Amendment, all of whom agreed
that the operative clause concerning the right of the people
was in no way limited by the considerations of the militia.

One of my tenants, an English professor of Queens College NY,
a liberal Democrat with whom I 've had many ideological debates,
agrees that this is the only grammatically correct understanding
of the amendment.

The ANTI freedom contingent has NEVER offered the analysis
of ANY professional grammarian in support of the anti-freedom,
suppressionist of self defense point of vu.


David
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 08:20 pm
gungasnake wrote:


They say that in extreme cases, penis envy can be fatal; you might want to get yourself checked out.



What a great come back. I'm just so in awe. Wow, you're even BIGGER loser than I first imagined. It must really tiny. Does that great big gun help your self esteem?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 09:34 pm
Wilso wrote:
gungasnake wrote:


They say that in extreme cases, penis envy can be fatal; you might want to get yourself checked out.



What a great come back. I'm just so in awe. Wow, you're even BIGGER loser than I first imagined. It must really tiny. Does that great big gun help your self esteem?

U know, Wilso, for a long time,
we on the pro-freedom side of the right to self defense
have been accused by u suppressionists
of having emotional disturbances resulting from concerns of this nature.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2007 09:40 pm
P. S. :
My personal choice is to favor
smaller, more concealable revolvers,
like the 2 inch, .44 special Taurus Model 445 revolver,
loaded with hollowpointed slugs to avoid overpenetration.
David
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 09:11 am
Gunga, the recent decision is less than a blockbuster. It was by a majority of a three-person PANEL of the circuit court. The decision only applies within the area covered by the circuit court's jurisdiction, and it will, as was said, be appealed. Every other court case, other than a single minor lower-court one, supported the militia interpretation.

There were many founders who signed the constitution, including the B of R, and they had different reasons for signing. They therefore made it clear that various writings would not be determinative for interpretation purposes.

OSD, please spare us your cites to what are, at best, weak dicta.

BTW, if handguns were made illegal, then, like drugs, they will cost much, much more. This will make them largely unaffordable.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 09:17 am
There are no exceptions to the rights in the B of R. The "yelling fire" thing is not an exception to the first amendment because, since it results in an immediate response. As such, it constitutes an action (as opposed to speech).

There are some conflicts between the various rights.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2007 09:38 am
Advocate wrote:

Quote:
OSD, please spare us your cites to what are, at best, weak dicta.

Is the strength or weakness of " dicta "
determined by how well thay support your anti-freedom philosophy ??






Quote:

BTW, if handguns were made illegal, then, like drugs, they will cost much, much more. This will make them largely unaffordable.

Lemme get this straight:
U are telling us that because marijuana and heroin
are illegal, therefore, they are " unaffordable " ?? and no one gets them ?

Do u also believe that in the 1920s,
after the Prohibition rendered alcohol consumption illegal,
that no one got that either ? Everyone lost interest in drinking ?

The speak easies were empty ?
Bath tub jin was just a myth,
like anyone making PCP or heroin now ?
0 Replies
 
 

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