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Does "Bush bashing" bother you?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 01:21 pm
That's a frightening prospect for less than 50 percent of our citizens. That, in and of itself, is frightening.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 02:34 pm
A news report.
*************
Administration Sets Forth a Limited View on Privacy
March 6, 2004
By ROBERT PEAR and ERIC LICHTBLAU

WASHINGTON, March 5 - In a sharp departure from its past
insistence on the sanctity of medical records, the Bush
administration has set forth a new, more limited view of
privacy rights as it tries to force hospitals and clinics
to turn over records of hundreds and perhaps thousands of
abortions.

Federal law "does not recognize a physician-patient
privilege," the Justice Department said last month in court
papers that sought abortion records from Planned Parenthood
clinics in California, Kansas, Missouri, Pennsylvania, New
York City and Washington. Moreover, the department said in
another abortion case, patients "no longer possess a
reasonable expectation that their histories will remain
completely confidential."

Health lawyers and privacy experts said that position
reflected a significant shift after six years in which Bush
and Clinton administration officials had promised to
strengthen the confidentiality of medical records.

Two federal judges have also expressed alarm over the
government position. The latest blow to the government was
on Friday, when a federal district judge in San Francisco
denied a demand by the Justice Department for access to
abortion records from a public hospital there and from six
Planned Parenthood affiliates in the county.

The judge, Phyllis J. Hamilton, said forcing the providers
to turn over the records would undermine the privacy rights
of patients and could dissuade some from seeking treatment.


"There is no question that the patient is entitled to
privacy and protection," Judge Hamilton said. "Women are
entitled to not have the government looking at their
records."

Judge Hamilton said the records included "potentially
identifying information of an extremely personal and
intimate nature" like age of first sexual experience, types
of contraception used and details of abuse or sexually
transmitted diseases.

The city said federal officials were seeking the records of
2,700 patients.

What began late last year as a fairly modest government
effort to obtain records appears to have ballooned into a
systematic effort in courts around the country to define
the limits of medical privacy.

Health care professionals and privacy advocates say the
government's position has broad implications beyond
abortion. If patients have no reasonable expectation of
privacy, the critics say, the government may be more
aggressive in seeking records from hospitals, insurance
companies and other businesses in criminal, civil and
administrative cases.

The Justice Department says it needs the records to defend
a new law that prohibits what opponents call partial-birth
abortions. Doctors and clinics have challenged the law,
saying it bars them from performing certain medically
needed abortions.

A spokesman for the White House, Trent D. Duffy, defended
the subpoenas. The administration is "strongly committed to
medical privacy," and the subpoenas are "completely
consistent" with federal privacy rules, Mr. Duffy said.

A spokeswoman for the Justice Department, Monica M.
Goodling, said, "We are respecting patient privacy by
having hospitals delete any information that identifies
specific patients."

President Bush was elected on a platform that proclaimed
support for medical privacy. In April 2001, he said he
would protect "the right of every American to have
confidence that his or her personal medical records will
remain private."

At the time, Tommy G. Thompson, secretary of health and
human services, said, "We are giving patients peace of mind
in knowing that their medical records are confidential and
their privacy is not vulnerable to intrusion."

The federal rules, adopted under a 1996 law, have touched
off a quiet revolution in health care. Doctors, hospitals
and drugstores routinely give "notices of privacy
practices" to patients, assuring them that personal
information will be protected.

Privacy advocates say the administration has rolled back
some safeguards adopted by President Bill Clinton, and the
Justice Department says now that the 1996 law is no
obstacle to its efforts to obtain abortion records. In
court papers, the Justice Department says the records are
needed to show that the banned procedure is almost never
medically necessary and "poses serious risks."

Dennis J. Herrera, the city attorney for San Francisco,
said he was deeply troubled by Washington's stance.

"Any reasonable person has an expectation that their
medical records are going to be kept private," Mr. Herrera
said. "If physicians and patients are left wondering
whether their records are going to be made public, that has
a real chilling effect. How candid are people really going
to be with their doctors?"

The abortion recipients are not directly involved in the
litigation, and the government has not told them that it
wants their records.

The Justice Department says the federal rules allow the
disclosure of medical records in judicial proceedings, with
safeguards to protect patients' names. But doctors and
hospitals say state laws often prohibit such disclosures,
even with deleted names.

Representative Edward J. Markey, the Massachusetts Democrat
who is co-chairman of the Congressional Privacy Caucus,
said the records would have clues that could identify
patients.

"How many hundreds of women, or thousands, will have the
frightening experience of their medical records being
handed over to the Justice Department as part of a fishing
expedition?" Mr. Markey asked.

Representative Nita M. Lowey, Democrat of New York, said:
"This administration claims to have taken great pride in
adopting regulations aimed at ensuring the sanctity and
privacy of medical records. But in an attempt to defend the
so-called partial-birth abortion ban, it seems to have lost
sight of its promises."

The demand for files is not limited to records of that type
of abortion, known medically as intact dilation and
extraction. The government also seeks these materials for
the last three years:

¶Records of any second-trimester abortion in which the
patient suffered a medical complication, regardless of the
technique.

¶Records of any case in which a doctor caused a fetus's
death by injecting chemical agents in the womb in the
second or third trimester.

¶Documents related to any medical malpractice claims
arising from certain abortions.

¶The names of all doctors who have performed any type of
abortion.

The recent subpoenas appear to have struck a nerve with
Attorney General John Ashcroft's critics, because of his
history as an outspoken opponent of abortion in almost all
cases. Advocates of abortion rights said they did not trust
his department to judge whether abortions were medically
necessary.

The federal standards have real-life implications for
people like Sally Scofield, a legal secretary in Manhattan,
Ill., who has joined a suit to fight the rules. After knee
surgery and spinal injections in 2002, Ms. Scofield said,
she was shocked to learn that her records had been given
without her consent to a medical research business, an
investigation company and a photocopying service.

"I have nothing to hide about my knee or my spine," Ms.
Scofield said. "But every woman will tell you she has
medical records she does not want shared. Rape victims,
child molestation, incest, H.I.V., there are a lot of
things people don't need to know about."

Carolyn Marshall contributed reporting from San Francisco
for this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/06/politics/06PRIV.html?ex=1079581602&ei=1&en=e000dc6f8af69a79
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 03:03 pm
What will the next step be the reporting of people who are mentally impaired. I am beginning to wonder who Bush's role model is.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 03:11 pm
Am I the only one wondering about a poll that's not a poll? This thread is billed as a poll, but it seems to have closed down after 8 votes. Interestingly, those votes were pro-Bush by a 3-1 margin.

Could the poll have been rigged? Shades of Florida in 2000! Bring on the Supreme Court! On second thought, maybe not a good idea...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 03:27 pm
I'm interested to find out if this administration is interested in "security" to protect the American People in pursuing doctor-patient information? It's been shown this administration doesn't understand anything about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, so I'm wondering how far they're going to take "gay marriage" and "abortion" to change our Constitution?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 05:56 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
Am I the only one wondering about a poll that's not a poll? This thread is billed as a poll, but it seems to have closed down after 8 votes. Interestingly, those votes were pro-Bush by a 3-1 margin.

Could the poll have been rigged? Shades of Florida in 2000! Bring on the Supreme Court! On second thought, maybe not a good idea...


D'Art, this thread was once a Roundtable thread. The Roundtable was the closed forum for conservative-minded A2K'ers and the odd dissenter, where they could discuss at leisure without having to endure hecklers. So that explains why the poll's results veer to the right, so to say. The poll was probably closed when the Roundtable was taken off-line a few months ago. All the threads that were in there, however, re-emerged online a week or so ago as regular "Politics" threads. Hence the confusion.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 06:47 pm
A correction and comment on nimh's "explanation".

1) The roundtable has not even been closed for 1 month. Not "a few months" as nimh states. Tommorow will be the first month and only because February is a short one.

2) Elsewhere nimh has alluded to surprise about the topics being publically available. This despite his suggestion on February 11th that they be made publically available so that he can save the threads he'd participated in.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 08:05 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
1) The roundtable has not even been closed for 1 month. Not "a few months" as nimh states. Tommorow will be the first month and only because February is a short one.

I stand corrected! Sorry about that ... A2K years versus real-time years ;-)

Craven de Kere wrote:
2) Elsewhere nimh has alluded to surprise about the topics being publically available. This despite his suggestion on February 11th that they be made publically available so that he can save the threads he'd participated in.

Nah, what I expressed surprise about is seeing the Roundtable threads suddenly pop up as regular Politics threads.

I remember a discussion about whether the Roundtable should be made publicly viewable or not ... I actually thought the response had been, "rather not, yet", but you pointed out that there'd been a thread and a vote about it and an agreement to yes, make it so, and my memory aint that good, so I'm sure you're right.

I was neutral about it anyway. I didnt mind making it viewable for everybody. And like I said in that post you refer to, when the threads had temporarily gone off-line I noted that I'd prefer having the Roundtable "publicly available" than having it gone, altogether.

I just hadnt realised that "publicly available" would be, like, dissolved. I mean, I know the Roundtablists discussed whether to make it possible for others to view the threads and all, but I dont think we ever discussed opening them up for posting for everybody, let alone dissolving the Roundtable, altogether. And I mean, after I posted that on Feb 11, Jes responded that "the forum still exists", after all, and that we just needed to "be patient". So hence my surprise.

Anyway, it's not like I care to pursue it, at all - I think its a pity, but hell, so things go, no major harm, and like you say, better to at least not have lost those threads, altogether.

Its just that in cases like with this thread, as you've seen with D'Art's post, it raises some confusion - hence explaining him what happened.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 08:10 pm
nimh wrote:

I stand corrected! Sorry about that ... A2K years versus real-time years ;-)


NP, I'm sensitive to this difference because I am behind on my A2K "work". The Roundtable is not the only group. The Christians are still in limbo fending off lions and they were supposed to get their status resolved a month ago as well.

Many things ahve come up since then. I'm "retiring" and that changes the format as it's now contingient on what others are willing to do (since I don't plan to be doing that part of the work anymore).

Other bigger things have come up that might include selling this site, merging it with another or other such partnerships that are being explored.

So while the work is late, it's late for important reasons right now and also not that late. ;-)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 08:18 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
nimh wrote:

I stand corrected! Sorry about that ... A2K years versus real-time years ;-)


NP, I'm sensitive to this difference because I am behind on my A2K "work". The Roundtable is not the only group. The Christians are still in limbo fending off lions and they were supposed to get their status resolved a month ago as well.


LOL!

<smiles>

OK ...
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 08:43 pm
Maybe I can explain some things better here:

nimh wrote:
I remember a discussion about whether the Roundtable should be made publicly viewable or not ... I actually thought the response had been, "rather not, yet", but you pointed out that there'd been a thread and a vote about it and an agreement to yes, make it so, and my memory aint that good, so I'm sure you're right.


Yep, that was the initial change that I was going to make. After that factors changed that plan.

Quote:
I just hadnt realised that "publicly available" would be, like, dissolved. I mean, I know the Roundtablists discussed whether to make it possible for others to view the threads and all, but I dont think we ever discussed opening them up for posting for everybody, let alone dissolving the Roundtable, altogether.


The roundtable isn't dissolved. But I do want to clarify that the wishes of the roundtable are not going to be what determines the decision on the format.

Quote:
And I mean, after I posted that on Feb 11, Jes responded that "the forum still exists", after all, and that we just needed to "be patient". So hence my surprise.


At that point the plan was to do exactly what I had discussed with Sofia. The plan changed while I was implementing it.

Now the plan is "figure out what to do".

BTW, the forum still exists. I think it will be moved to the debate room so that this arrangement can be made for other usergroups without having to create forums (which has technical limitations in terms of who can do it and what it does to the system by making pages longer and select boxes longer).

I won't say what will happen because the plan has already changed a few times in a few weeks and the new big things that came up both pushed it to the back burner as well as throwing some of the technical factors involved up in the air.

To give an idea of the current uncertainty from a technological standpoint there's a chance that every line of code of this site will be changed shorty. We might even start using a different software or even programming language.

So right now everything is up in the air, pending negotiations with another site.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 08:53 pm
Wow. Damn.

That must be overwhelming. <nods>

Do we have to start backing up our threads, or is it one of those things where the behind-the-scenes work is causing you lots of headache, while us lazy posters dont notice a thing?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 09:12 pm
<lets it sink in>

Man, Craven. Thats some big changes announcing themselves in your life/work.

Sorry if I sounded flippant just there - didnt mean to.

Poor folks - just now all those people who came from Abuzz and all that got to really feel at ease at this place, love it even, another major change!

Could all become better too, of course, I know - I just instinctually see all change as bad ;-).

Will be looking forward to more news! In the mean time, to speak with Noddy, hold your dominion!
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 09:12 pm
No matter what's done integrity of the current dat is paramount to me it represents a lot of posters' time and a lot of my time in keeping the system running to accumulate it so it's to the best of everyone's interests to keep it.

In other words the only way the data would be lost is in a worst case scenario (e.g nukes that takes out texas, california AND Vancouver).

I'd never change format without a way to convert all the data here first into it's new format.

So the only way we lose all data is for all teh backups I have to be destroyed. The data is backed up on the actual server, on a remote server, on 3 computers I control/use, and on my MP3 player.

So if the site server went down there migth be a few days/minutes of data loss (the backup does not run 24/7 so there are increments). Multiple backups would ahve to be lost for total data loss.

But I can't imagine anything that'd make me decide to do anything that required the loss of current data.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 09:16 pm
Ah, we posted simultaneously. I kinda regretted the instant egoism of my, "what about our threads" reaction, there.

Still, nice answer. Texas and California, huh <grins>
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 09:20 pm
nimh wrote:
Could all become better too, of course, I know - I just instinctually see all change as bad ;-).


Right now the chances of real big change that is visible from the user end is slight.

The changes to the backend will most likely be extensive and they most likely will involve merging the content of two sites.

But the changes the users will see shou;dn't bee to big. There might be a huge influx of more Q&A style interactions and members here migth be asked to write more descriptive titles (because the titles might be all the other site uses from our content) but that's all I see as likely right now.

But this is all pending both negotiations and technical issues.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 09:58 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Are you saying your opinion of president Bush is better rooted in fact?

Seems to me that it's a subjective difference of opinion about the same facts.

Funny, I don't recall Edgar sharing any facts. He simply wrote that he'd like to see the President, who--as far as I know--has neither been accused of or charged with any crime (here's where liberals will start inventing crimes for us) in handcuffs.

So yes, based on that I assume that my opinion is better rooted in fact, given that his seems to owe it no allegiance whatsoever. Why do you ask?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 10:04 pm
I was not talking about his individual post. If the issue is facts per post your subsequent posts to his were on the same level.

Furthermore you did not say Edgar failed to post said facts but alluded to him not basing his opinion on them at all.

What I am suggesting is that Edgard arrived at his opinion based on the same general facts that you do.

You were not saying his post was devoid of its substantiation, you were implying that he himself is irrational (and did so without posting any facts either, in an interesting irony).
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 10:30 pm
Craven - The issue isn't whether this person has ever cited facts, it was whether he has shown that he holds himself to some acknowledgement thereof in forming his opinions. I believe he has indicated that he does not, and I am confident that any fair and unbiased reading of my record here shows that I do. This is not a question of reaching different conclusions. He might as well write that he would like to see the president in a black lace teddy. There is no basis in reality for thinking one would see that, nor is there any in thinking one would see him in handcuffs. Such statements are imbecilic and clear evidence of a person who is not thinking, not giving reasoned consideration to facts, but simply hating and enjoying doing so.

You can't throw a stone around A2K without hitting a dozen such. Some have intelligence and others do not, but not one is using theirs in any rational way when the name "Bush" is in play. I despise these. There are those who react the same way to the name "Clinton", and I despise them too. These unthinking partisan zealots don't deserve the freedom they have or the voice they use in their sideshow version of debate. They don't care what the facts are; they are for more interested in how strongly they feel about things. They are children. Sadly for this country, they are children with votes.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2004 10:34 pm
I'm with you insofar as wanting to see Bush in a lace teddy and in that partisanship can be off-putting.
0 Replies
 
 

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