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Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 11:39 am
Quote:

Navy Rules for Gun fighting:

1. Go to Sea

2. Send the Marines

3. Drink Coffee


Funny, but if you spent some time aboard a destroyer looking down the bores of the guns, not especially true; it takes a hell of a lot of coordination and skill to clean, load and fire those hellish cannons; and even more to actually hit something miles away.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 11:51 am
So, I was thinking about worse case scenario this morning...

Know what that turned out to be?

President Pelosi

Could you imagine the implications of that? I don't think I will get much sleep tonight now thinking about that. That Pelosi might be third in line of succession to the presidency is just damn scary.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 11:52 am
Why?

I think Pelosi is a boogeyman for those on the right

Cycloptichorn
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:06 pm
Real investigations are damn scary to Bushies. Truth could lead to impeachment of both Cheney and Bushie. Should Pelosi pursue truth anyway? Yes in the name of national security. There should be open and honest investigations of 911 and the "we need a new Pearl Harbor" PNAC axis that controls this administration. President Pelosi could become a reality not due to anything other than Bushie's and Cheney's well documented high crimes.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:33 pm
The only thing for certain is that Pelosi supporters give ample evidence for why Bush supporters think with all its flaws, the GOP is far more rational and civil and focused on solutions than are the angry liberals who think its cute to barge into a thread like this and spread as much venom as they can. Geez you guys won the election. And you're still too mad to think about anything but being mad and as destructive as possible. I don't pretend to understand that. But you sure don't win any points or appreciation for your side.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:40 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The only thing for certain is that Pelosi supporters give ample evidence for why Bush supporters think with all its flaws, the GOP is far more rationale and civil and focused on solutions than are the angry liberals who think its cute to barge into a thread like this and spread as much venom as they can. Geez you guys won the election. And you're still too mad to think about anything but being mad and as destructive as possible. I don't pretend to understand that. But you sure don't win any points or appreciation for your side.


Don't waste your breath with false concern for 'points or appreciation.' Nothing we could do other than becoming Republicans would earn 'points of appreciation' from your side. And, to tell the truth, we really don't give a damn whether you guys appreciate us or not. You certainly didn't during the time of your majorities.

Just wait until you are seeing more and more of your 'leaders' go down in flames in scandals that are uncovered under the new Dem Congress... you call it destructive, but it is far more akin to removing cancerous tissue from the body of America.

Cycloptichorn
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:41 pm
I rest my case. Thanks for providing an excellent illustration Cyclop.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:41 pm
Perhaps you could go and post a thread about that cyc. This isn't the place.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:43 pm
mmm hmm.

You guys are the best, really.

Please do me a favor and continue to provide such hilarious commentary for the next two years, as things get worse, and worse, and worse for your side. My suggestion would be to get haughtier, angrier and dumber all at the same time, which should prove exceedingly easy for the pair of you.

Cycloptichorn
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:46 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mmm hmm.

You guys are the best, really.

Please do me a favor and continue to provide such hilarious commentary for the next two years, as things get worse, and worse, and worse for your side. My suggestion would be to get haughtier, angrier and dumber all at the same time, which should prove exceedingly easy for the pair of you.

Cycloptichorn


You mean like your side has done the past 6 years? No thanks, I will pass on getting "haughtier, angrier and dumber all at the same time," and leave that to you and your brethren.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:48 pm
An excellent retort

You truly put me in my place

I just don't know what I was thinking, challenging someone like you rhetorically.

Cycloptichorn
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:50 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
An excellent retort

You truly put me in my place

I just don't know what I was thinking, challenging someone like you rhetorically.

Cycloptichorn

All this "meta-discussion" about the character of the posters is pretty much a waste of everyone's time, and just derails the actual thread topic. Please be more considerate.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:56 pm
That's funny, I don't consider it to be a waste of my time.

And if you read closely, you will see that my posts were in fact on-topic and it wasn't until others started commenting on me that I replied. That's your usual excuse, right Brandon?

Cycloptichorn
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:57 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's funny, I don't consider it to be a waste of my time.

And if you read closely, you will see that my posts were in fact on-topic and it wasn't until others started commenting on me that I replied. That's your usual excuse, right Brandon?

Cycloptichorn

Another meta-post. Please just let it go and let the posters who actually want to discuss the topic do so.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:02 pm
It is downright astounding how quickly you have switched positions on this issue, Brandon. I take it as a testament to my rhetorical prowess in the other thread, thanks!

Cycloptichorn Laughing
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:16 pm
You have much more patience than I, cyclop.

If the "Bush supporters" had any integrity or shame, they'd be a lot more silent and introspective about events over the past week. But some are so locked into their "support" that they have to keep making these pitiful defensive noises about a failed party and a failed political philosophy.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:17 pm
Rumsfeld and the Realists
Consistency is irrelevant to progressives.

BY MICHAEL RUBIN
Monday, November 13, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

On Dec. 20, 1983, Donald Rumsfeld, then Ronald Reagan's Middle East envoy, met Iraqi President Saddam Hussein in Baghdad. According to declassified documents, the Reagan administration sought to re-establish long-severed relations with Baghdad amid concern about growing Iranian influence. While U.S. intelligence had earlier confirmed Saddam's use of chemical weapons, Mr. Rumsfeld did not broach the subject. His handshake with Saddam, caught on film by Iraqi television, represented a triumph for diplomatic realism.

Iran and Iraq would fight for five more years, leaving hundreds of thousands dead on the battlefield. Then, two years after a ceasefire ended the war, Saddam invaded Kuwait. In subsequent years, he would subsidize waves of Palestinian suicide-bombers, effectively ending the Oslo peace process. Saddam's career is a model of realist blowback.

On Sept. 23, 2002, as Saddam defied international inspectors and U.N. sanctions crumbled under the greed of Paris, Moscow and Iraq's neighbors, Newsweek published a cover story, "How we Helped Create Saddam," that once again thrust the forgotten handshake into public consciousness. Across both the U.S. and Britain, the story provoked press outrage. NPR conducted interviews outlining how the Reagan administration allowed Saddam to acquire dual-use equipment. Mr. Rumsfeld "helped Iraq get chemical weapons," headlined London's Daily Mail. British columnist Robert Fisk concluded that the handshake was evidence of Mr. Rumsfeld's disdain for human rights, and Amy and David Goodman of "Democracy Now!" condemned Mr. Rumsfeld for enabling Saddam's "lethal shopping spree." While 20 years too late, progressives decried the cold, realist calculations that sent people across the third world to their graves in the cause of U.S. national interest.

What a difference a war makes. Today, progressives and liberals celebrate not only Mr. Rumsfeld's departure, but the resurrection of realists like Secretary of Defense-nominee Robert Gates and James Baker. Mr. Gates was the CIA's deputy director for intelligence at the time of Mr. Rumsfeld's infamous handshake, deputy director of Central Intelligence when Saddam gassed the Kurds, and deputy national security advisor when Saddam crushed the Shiite uprising. Mr. Baker was as central. He was White House chief of staff when Reagan dispatched Mr. Rumsfeld to Baghdad and, as secretary of state, ensured Saddam's grip on power after Iraqis heeded President George H.W. Bush's Feb. 15, 1991, call for "the Iraqi people \[to\] take matters into their own hands and force Saddam Hussein the dictator to step aside." In the months that followed, Saddam massacred tens of thousands of civilians.

While Mr. Rumsfeld worked to right past wrongs, Messrs. Gates and Baker winked at the Iraqi dictator's continuing grip on power. For progressives, this is irrelevant. Today, progressivism places personal vendetta above principle. Mr. Rumsfeld is bad, Mr. Baker is good, and consistency irrelevant.

***Progressive inconsistency will only increase with the unveiling of the Baker-Hamilton commission recommendations calling for reconciliation with both Syria and Iran. In effect, Mr. Baker's proposals are to have the White House replicate the Rumsfeld-Saddam handshake with both Syrian President Bashar Assad and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

The parallels are striking. First, just as Saddam denied Kuwait's right to exist, Mr. Assad refuses to recognize Lebanese independence (Damascus has no embassy in Beirut) and Mr. Ahmadinejad calls for Israel's eradication. Washington realpolitik enabled Saddam to act out his fantasies; evidence suggests both Mr. Assad and Mr. Ahmadinejad aspire to do likewise.

Second, just as the Reagan-era Rumsfeld turned a blind eye toward Iraqi chemical weapons, so too does Mr. Baker now counsel ignoring their embrace by the Syrian and Iranian leadership. Tehran used chemical munitions in its war against Iraq, and senior Iranian officials have also threatened first-strike use of nuclear weapons. Syria is just as dangerous: On April 20, 2004, Jordanian security intercepted Syrian-based terrorists planning to target Amman with 20 tons of chemical weapons. Mr. Assad has yet to explain the incident.

And, third, there is the issue of detente enabling armament. Following his rapprochement with Washington, Saddam transformed investment into replenishment. The cost of ejecting Iraqi forces from Kuwait was far greater than any benefit borne of engagement.

Trade with Tehran has likewise backfired. Between 2000 and 2005, European Union trade with Iran almost tripled. During this same period, Iranian authorities used their hard currency windfall not to invest in schools and hospitals, but rather in uranium processing plants and anti-aircraft batteries. Mohammad Khatami, Mr. Ahmadinejad's predecessor and a man often labeled reformist by U.S. and European realists, showed the Islamic Republic's priorities when he spent two-thirds of his oil-boom windfall on the military. Said Mr. Khatami on April 18, 2002: "Today our army is one of the most powerful in the world. . . . It has become self-sufficient, and is on the road to further development." Subsequent discovery of Iran's covert nuclear facilities later that year clarified his boast. The Assad regime has shown its willingness to spend its discretionary income on a wide-range of weaponry and terror groups.

Realism promotes short-term gain, often at the expense of long-term security. With hindsight, it is clear that Mr. Rumsfeld's handshake with Saddam backfired. While it may have constrained Iran in the short-term, its blowback in terms of blood and treasure has been immense.

Why then do so many progressives then celebrate the return of realism? The reasons are multifold. First, having allowed personal animosities to dominate their ideology, they embrace change, regardless of how it impacts stated principles. Hatred of Mr. Rumsfeld became a principle in itself. Likewise, the same progressives who disparage John Bolton seldom explain why they feel forcing the U.N. to account for its inefficiencies or stick to its founding principles is bad. They complain not of his performance, but rather of his pedigree.

Second is a tendency to conflate analysis with advocacy. Progressives find themselves in a situation where they both embrace realism but deny reality. An Oct. 13 Chronicle of Higher Education article regarding a Columbia University professor's attacks on Azar Nafisi, author of "Reading Lolita in Tehran," highlighted the issue: "The conundrum, say these \[Middle East studies\] scholars, is how to voice opposition to the actions of the Islamic Republic without being co-opted by those who seek external regime change in Iran through a military attack." By embracing a canard, intellectuals convinced themselves of the nobility of ignoring evidence. Thus, Western feminists march alongside Islamists who seek their subjection while progressive labor activists join with Republican realists to ignore Tehran's attacks on bus drivers seeking an independent union, even as a Gdansk-type movement offers the best hope for peaceful change in Iran.

Both realism and progressivism have become misnomers. Realists deny reality, and embrace an ideology where talk is productive and governments are sincere. While 9/11 showed the consequences of chardonnay diplomacy, deal-cutting with dictators and a band-aid approach to national security, realists continue to discount the importance of adversaries' ideologies and the need for long-term strategies. And by embracing such realism, progressives sacrifice their core liberalism. Both may celebrate Mr. Rumsfeld's departure and the Baker-Hamilton recommendations, but at some point, it is fair to ask what are the lessons of history and what is the cost of abandoning principle.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:20 pm
http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.11.12.BattleRoyale-X.gif
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:20 pm
Bush Proud That Elections Weren't Canceled "In Time Of War"

The Carpetbagger Report
Monday, November 13, 2006

I believe it's important that Americans appreciate the democratic process, but this seems to have "soft bigotry of low expectations" written all over it. From yesterday's presidential radio address:

One freedom that defines our way of life is the freedom to choose our leaders at the ballot box. We saw that freedom earlier this week, when millions of Americans went to the polls to cast their votes for a new Congress. Whatever your opinion of the outcome, all Americans can take pride in the example our democracy sets for the world by holding elections even in a time of war." (emphasis added)

We should be "proud" that the federal government didn't cancel our elections? That the Bush administration didn't use the war as an excuse to interrupt the democratic process?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:23 pm
Jingoism

We don't want to fight
But, by Jingo, if we do,
We've got the ships,
We've got the men,
We've got the money, too.
0 Replies
 
 

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