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Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 10:33 am
Re: Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III
Quote:
Lola: Stop hammering on the opposition. You know you love us. Where would you be without us?


Ticomaya wrote:
Cloud nine?


Swilling goblets of delusion with wild abandon.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 04:37 pm
Re: Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III
Ticomaya wrote:
Lola wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Could the liberals on A2K please not pollute this thread into an anti-Bush thread? I'd prefer not having to weed through the garbage to read a post in a thread topic I am interested in.

This is a BUSH SUPPORTER thread. If you do not support Bush, please feel free not to read or post here.


If the non-Bush supporters stopped posting on this thread you guys wouldn't have anything to write about.


Why don't we try it and see?

Because it is not within your power, you silly man. I just thought I'd come along and do my little part.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 03:08 am
Quote:
Voters did not reject core Republican principles of lower taxes, smaller government and family values when they put the Democrats in charge of Congress, Republican officials across the country said last week in their post-mortems on the midterm elections.


From America's newspaper: Core values still valid, GOP says
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 07:07 am
It's interesting to read republican/conservative interpretations of the election results (such as the WT piece from Walter). A lot of them (Coulter, Matelin, Krauthammer for example) are of the "you missed me" variety... insignificant loss, the movement remains vital, the dems won because they became us (more correctly, pretended to be like us). You would almost think these folks wished for precisely this electoral result.

Of course, what else can they say? It is just a revisitation to the necessary (or perceived to be necessary) type of claim Rove made a week ago about the likely electoral results..."we're confident and we have good reasons for being confident". Ironically, Bush spoke as honestly as anyone in the party when on the day after he described the loss as a "whoopin" or a "stompin" or whatever the metaphor was.

They (the movement seniors) will try now to keep the infighting private and to a minimum (it worked before and it seems a matter of personality with some of them to NEVER admit error or being bested by the horrid lefties - how many authoritarians do NOT rail loudly at any slight or diminishment of status?).

But they won't be able to manage this very well because they all understand that the reality is that the movement is in trouble and may not survive as the dominant element in US politics. And because the various constituencies which amalgamated in the movement (to mutual benefit, at least for a while) often don't share much other than the advantages which accrue to power. Weyrich, corporate lobbyists/interests, Kristol, border minutemen, and 'church ladies' are really quite an odd conglomerate.

The next bit of time will be very interesting, and the repub presidential nomination interactions will likely give us a real good peak into how unified or not this injured movement can still be.

Part of the "wisdom" of this election is that the dems didn't win, the republicans lost. That's not really a very encouraging way for republicans to be thinking (of course, it is meant to be encouraging) because it points to a truth...republican leadership was rejected. That rejection includes, it seems pretty clear, rejection of extremism foreign and domestic, rejection of low-road divisiveness as an electoral strategy, and rejection of the uses of fear and misinformation.

And that's perhaps the movement and the party's senior problem now. Many of the techniques they used to get and maintain power have achieved disfavor in the electorate. Should they "return to a robust and severe conservatism" so as to "differentiate" themselves? I doubt very much that will do anything but hurt them further. I think they'll have to move to the center, and that's why McCain looks a very good bet for them. I hope the religious right shaves itself off into its own party, but they probably won't be that stupid. Extremism of the neoconservative sort is in broad disfavor now too (thank you jesus) and war-mongering isn't going to be well received. The border extremists got slaughtered and so did republican hopes for gaining more of the latino consitutency so continuing or further extremism looks completely suicidal.

The party will have to, I think, move to the center. That will place a new and healthy restraint on people like Coulter and Limbaugh (note Limbaugh's statement that he feels liberated by the loss because he won't have to carry water for people who don't deserve it - not enough balls or honesty to name names of course...and no apparent awareness of what this says about his intellectual integrity previously).

I think Guiliani doesn't look a good bet now because his main positive was his 9/11 performance. In the present climate, I think, the administration's propaganda (and movement hacks' propaganda) tying 9/11 to Iraq and "war on terror" has created an identification between Guiliani and the Iraq war. Romney doesn't have that albatross. And McCain seems to have rather magically escaped this albatross because he's identified with many other things as well (election reform, bipartisan productivity, fillibuster, etc) which make him look more mature, rounder, and more centrist.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 07:25 am
Bush's approval now down to 31... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/11/AR2006111100689.html
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 10:48 am



Proof positive that there still is a core of highly delusional folk.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 10:56 am


We always knew he was stupid.

We later learned he was an incurious, unlettered ignoramus. We listened incredulous as he proved himself a tongue-tied ass, despite having some of the best speech-writers money can buy. He was exposed as a vicious bully, an arrogant xenophobe, a liar, a swaggering, smirking blot on humanity; in short, a disgrace, and an affront to his office.

But George, this shows you can still fool some of the people all of the time.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 04:36 pm
Postmortems from some (erstwhile) Bush supporters:

"Veteran conservative strategist Richard A. Viguerie":

Quote:
the Republican leadership in the House [has] failed the people of this country [..] This election was also a referendum on the so-called `neoconservatives' -- the big-government Republicans who took us into a nation-building war while they busted the budget and enriched big business and its K Street lobbyists.


"David Keene, the longtime president of the American Conservative Union":

Quote:
We have watched Republicans elected by promising the highest standards in terms of integrity come to Washington to do good and stay to do well for themselves, their families and their friends, and demean the offices to which they were elected in the process [..]

We have stood by as Republicans have flaunted, twisted and ignored rules to achieve their own partisan, rather than principled, ends; leaders who have used earmarks to seduce reluctant members to vote for legislation they knew was wrong and kept votes open for hours while they and their White House allies bludgeoned their colleagues into line in support of such legislation.


From The Miami Herald

If any of us would have used these above words just a week ago, you Bush supporters here would have insulted us or laughed in our faces. And yet here we are.

I only wish that these above-quoted conservatives and others like them, here or 'outside', would have had the gumption to actually speak up when it still mattered, when they still had something to lose. I'm glad they see the light now, but what cowardice.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 05:19 pm
Foxfyre quotes Charles Krauthammer who wrote:
Nonetheless, the difference between taking one house versus both -- and thus between normal six-year incumbent party losses and a major earthquake that shakes the presidency -- was razor thin in this election. A switch of just 1,424 votes in Montana would have kept the Senate Republican. [..]

[T]he great Democratic wave of 2006 is nothing remotely like the great structural change some are trumpeting.

The error Krauthammer makes in his thinking here is all the more odd since he himself mentions Bush's even razorthinner victory of 2000, and that of the Republicans in Congress that year. That victory was considerably more narrow still than the one this year. And yet it undoubtedly heralded a significant "structural change" in US politics that for six long years, changed the world, and will even now not subside easily.

Foxfyre quotes Charles Krauthammer who wrote:
Moreover, ballot initiatives make the claim of a major anti-conservative swing quite problematic. In Michigan, liberal Democrats swept the gubernatorial and senatorial races, yet a ballot initiative to abolish affirmative action passed 58-42. Seven out of eight anti-gay marriage amendments to state constitutions passed. And nine states passed referendums asserting individual property rights against the government's power of eminent domain.

Oddly enough, Krauthammer fails to mention some of the other outcomes of ballot initiatives, perhaps because they point to exactly the opposite conclusion.

  • In six states, voters overwhelmingly voted in favour of ballot initiatives to raise the minimum wage. The wage measures passed with an average of 65% support. They set minimum wages between $1 and $1.70 above the $5.15-an-hour federal rate.

  • Voters in conservative, rural and religious South Dakota voted to overturn the restrictive abortion law that would have banned all abortions except when the mother's life was in danger. The outcome, which had been expected to be razor thin, was suprisingly clear: 56% to 44%. In other news, voters in two states rejected ballot measures that would have obligated parental notifications of abortion.

  • Voters defeated a massive 16 out of 17 initiatives to limit state and local government through term limits, tax cuts and revenue restrictions, snubbing the conservative groups that had been pushing those efforts.

  • For the first time, a ballot initiative to ban gay marriage was defeated, rejecting the ban that was proposed in Arizona, which would have banned civil unions as well. Elsewhere, the margin of victory of anti-gay marriage initiatives was closer than it had ever been before. In South Dakota, 48% of voters opposed the ban, as did 44% in Colorado. Previously no proposed ban had faced a no-vote larger than 43%.

  • The voters of Missouri voted to allow stem cell research in a landmark ballot initiative, despite the conservative movement making it one of the central "values" battlegrounds this year.
All in all, the number of conservative successes in ballot initiatives was this year, for the first time, equalled by the number of liberal successes. After the past series of elections, in which conservatives became increasingly adroit at using ballot initiatives to turn out their base, that is a major breakthrough.

Foxfyre quotes Charles Krauthammer who wrote:
The fact that the Democrats crossed midfield does not make this election a great anti-conservative swing. Republican losses included a massacre of moderate Republicans in the Northeast and Midwest. And Democratic gains included the addition of many conservative Democrats, brilliantly recruited by Rep. Rahm Emanuel with classic Clintonian triangulation. Hence Heath Shuler of North Carolina, anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-tax -- and now a Democratic congressman.

The fact that Krauthammer mentions Shuler reminds me that this whole argument was already articulately rebutted:

Quote:
On Thursday, the New York Times' David Brooks wrote [..] that in Tuesday's elections "voters kicked out Republicans but did not swing to the left. For the most part they exchanged moderate Republicans for conservative Democrats."

He's not the only one to make a similar argument -- indeed, the meme that by delivering the Democrats the majority in both houses of Congress for the first time in 12 years voters somehow were trying to elect conservatives has been bouncing all over the media [..].

The National Review's Lawrence Kudlow was already [..] arguing before the final results were even in that "the changeover in the House may well be a conservative victory, not a liberal one."

And today a reporter for England's Guardian newspaper wrote, "The conservative Democrats, or new Democrats as they are sometimes called, were disproportionately represented in the most highly contested races against Republicans [..]."

There's just one problem with all this: It's not true. [W]hen actually broken down quantitatively, the number of liberal and conservative freshmen Democrats elected on Tuesday puts the lie to this running theme.

Media Matters for America, the liberal press watchdog, has already documented the political proclivities of 27 of the new Democrats in Congress; MMA restricted its analysis to those who defeated incumbent Republicans or took over open seats previously held by Republicans. It found: "All 27 candidates support raising the minimum wage. All 27 candidates advocate changing course in Iraq. All 27 candidates oppose efforts to privatize Social Security. Only two of the 27 candidates do not support embryonic stem cell research. Only five of the 27 candidates describe themselves as 'pro-life.'" [..]

In the Senate, Ohio's Sherrod Brown is a devoted liberal, as is Maryland's Ben Cardin [..].

In all of these arguments one name pops up continuously: Heath Shuler, the former NFL quarterback who ran, and won, as a social conservative. That's because, other than Shuler, there are very few others to whom the proponents of this theory can point. And yet this meme shows no signs of dying: It continues to be pushed by reporters and pundits who, like Brooks, have a vested interest in proving to their readers and employers that their views are shared by America at large. [..]

link
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 05:29 pm
If the Bush supporters had listened to the Republican Party's moderate wing and taken its advice on the minimum wage and stem cell research, they might not have had lost Missouri, where ballot initiatives on both issues helped turn out Democratic votes.

If they had not lost Missouri, they would not have lost the Senate.

Will they realise their mistake and listen now? Not likely. Which is good for Democratic chances in 2008 House and Senate races, but not good for the country.

0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 06:01 pm
http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/061108/keefe.gif
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 06:06 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/061108/keefe.gif


If only...........but I fear not. Nor will we see an end to the bobbing head.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 06:13 pm
nimh wrote:
Postmortems from some (erstwhile) Bush supporters:

"Veteran conservative strategist Richard A. Viguerie":

Quote:
the Republican leadership in the House [has] failed the people of this country [..] This election was also a referendum on the so-called `neoconservatives' -- the big-government Republicans who took us into a nation-building war while they busted the budget and enriched big business and its K Street lobbyists.


From The Miami Herald

If any of us would have used these above words just a week ago, you Bush supporters here would have insulted us or laughed in our faces. And yet here we are.

I only wish that these above-quoted conservatives and others like them, here or 'outside', would have had the gumption to actually speak up when it still mattered, when they still had something to lose. I'm glad they see the light now, but what cowardice.


Richard Viguerie did speak up before the election. I saw him on at least one Sunday talk show......or was it on PBS, can't remember now. However, I was shocked and pleased.

I believe he and other conservatives speaking up before the election did affect the results.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 06:08 am
from the chaps at Norquist's weekly strategy meeting...plus some others...
Quote:
And if they back away from the rationale for the war, said William Kristol, editor of the neoconservative magazine Weekly Standard, conservatives may give up their status as the forceful party on national defense, jeopardizing their long-term prospects for a governing majority. "As a political matter, conservatives should try to help Bush succeed because they are not going to get very far distancing themselves from him," Mr. Kristol said....
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/weekinreview/12kirkpatrick.html?pagewanted=2&ref=weekinreview

I've noted a particular comment from Kristol in red. It's very important to understand a fundamental element in what he is arguing here, as he has been doing in recent TV appearances as well.

The argument is that militarism and war benefits the marketing of the Republican Party to the end of electoral gains.

All those American kids, all those women and children blown apart, all the assaults on the constitution, and all for the end of partisan polical power.

We ought to know this guy for what he really is.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 07:26 am
And on the thought-terminating cliche "You do NOT talk with nor make deals with 'terrorists'"

Quote:
Amid new mayhem and political turmoil in Iraq, President Bush meets a key panel of advisers today to find a way out of the crisis, with his aides saying everything is on the table - including an overture to Iran.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1963646.ece

Not to mention Bartlett's explicit statements yesterday that contacts and talks with Iran and with Syria HAVE BEEN going on.

So, can we please from now on have some honesty and nuance on the matter.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 09:11 am
Marine Corps Rules for Gun Fighting

The Marine Corps Birthday makes me nostalgic for the good ol'…well, maybe good is too strong a word. In fact, I can't say that I miss being on active duty; but I do miss being with my fellow Marines.

Thinking about my friends who are getting shot at by ungrateful Iraqis reminded me of this list, an old Corps favorite, on how to act in a gun fight:

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."


Navy Rules for Gun fighting:

1. Go to Sea

2. Send the Marines

3. Drink Coffee
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 09:44 am
Sounds like Bush should have been in the Navy.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 09:44 am
McG, my retired Navy brother-in-law used to tell this one:

On a multi-force base the loudspeaker crackled followed by the announcement:

For civilian personnel it is 8 o'clock.

For Naval personnel it is 8 bells.

For Army personnel it is 0800.

For the Marines, the big hand is on. . . .

(My retired Marine uncles and nephew even have smiled a bit when he told it.) Smile

Siempre Fi
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 11:25 am
McGentrix wrote:
Marine Corps Rules for Gun Fighting

The Marine Corps Birthday makes me nostalgic for the good ol'…well, maybe good is too strong a word. In fact, I can't say that I miss being on active duty; but I do miss being with my fellow Marines.

Thinking about my friends who are getting shot at by ungrateful Iraqis reminded me of this list, an old Corps favorite, on how to act in a gun fight:

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."


Navy Rules for Gun fighting:

1. Go to Sea

2. Send the Marines

3. Drink Coffee


McG, you are a prat, with a criminal mindset.

I note the phrase "ungrateful Iraqis". What a concept.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 11:35 am
Perhaps, McTag, this thread is not to your taste and you should avoid it rather then posting in it.

I know I speak only for myself here, but your presence isn't required in this thread if you do not like the subject matter.
0 Replies
 
 

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