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Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 09:40 pm
Good stuff.


Quote:


A Come-to-Daddy Moment
By MAUREEN DOWD

Poppy Bush and James Baker gave Sonny the presidency to play with and he broke it. So now they're taking it back.

They are dragging W. away from those reckless older guys who have been such a bad influence and getting him some new minders who are a lot more practical.

In a scene that might be called "Murder on the Oval Express," Rummy turned up dead with so many knives in him that it's impossible to say who actually finished off the man billed as Washington's most skilled infighter. (Poppy? Scowcroft? Baker? Laura? Condi? The Silver Fox? Retired generals? Serving generals? Future generals? Troops returning to Iraq for the umpteenth time without a decent strategy? Democrats? Republicans? Joe Lieberman?)

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/11/09/opinion/09dowd.html

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 08:33 am
old europe wrote:
This is a rather pathetic opinion piece by Sowell. He seems to be quite disgruntled by the fact that the "Coalition of the Willing" was neither and that the US-led invasion of Iraq ended up to be what others called it right from the beginning: a quagmire. His only argument is this one: other western nations didn't follow us into the Iraq adventure, so they must be cowards, softened by decades without a war. Very nice. Maybe he wants the Third Reich back, or Napoleon or Franco. There seems to be a certain nostalgic sentiment for dictatorships of yore. Just like, uhm, ancient Rome, ya know?

He doesn't mention that the "paralyzation of the West", the unwillingness of most other western nations to send large numbers of troops into a souvereign country was not unwillingness to fight a "war on terror". But of course he doesn't have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge the efforts other nations have made, e.g. in Afghanistan. In fact, there are more troops from other countries stationed in Afghanistan than there are American troops. Isn't that just a wee bit weird, considering that the blame for 9/11 was put squarely at Osama bin Laden's and, by implication, the Taliban's feet?

Oh, and about Europeans being to risk-averse, too soft, etc. - he might want to consider the number of troops European nations have sent not only to Afghanistan, but sent for the current UNIFIL mission and compare that with the number of US troops. Why, exactly, didn't the US send troops into Lebanon? America too soft? Too risk-averse? Oh, maybe the decades without an attack on American soil have left Americans with the elusion that they are invulnerable? See, anyone can make ridiculous claims...

And yes, by all means, follow Sowell's advice and don't teach your children about what has been done in your nation's name in the past. When talking about genocide, talk about Armenians. When talking about slavery, talk about pirates. Sure.

He's talking about Western civilization. Well, he's partially right there. Western civilization has been something that other nations around the globe have at times been admiring. Sometimes not without a certain envy about the achievements.

Where he gets it wrong is when he says that Western civilization is the ability to "annihilate our enemies". That's not Western civilization. That's raw power. That's what the USSR had, too. Or what China has, or Pakistan, for that matter. But civilization is not about power. It's about values. It's about morality.

It's about not torturing people, by the way. It's about not imprisoning innocent people for years without trial. Not abducting people in the middle of the night. Not spying on your citizens. Not invading souvereign nations on a flimsy pretext.

In other words: if you don't want to be be seen as an "evil empire", stop acting like one.


My friend I don't blame you for feeling a bit snitty when you are criticized by Thomas Sowell. We bristle too when the sanctimonious and 'we're better than thou' types presume to dictate morality to us.

But you misplace your criticism of him in what you infer he is saying and distorting his intent. His thesis is clearly to illustrate that you have the luxury of being able to look down your nose at us and criticize us and call us the "evil empire" purely because of the protection we provide to you. I will imagine you will take exception to that too, but deny it if you can. That was the message in the piece Tico posted.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 08:55 am
Khamenei calls elections a victory for Iran

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Friday called U.S. President George W. Bush's defeat in congressional elections a victory for Iran.

Bush has accused Iran of trying to make a nuclear bomb, being a state sponsor of terrorism and stoking sectarian conflict in Iraq, all charges Tehran denies.

"This issue (the elections) is not a purely domestic issue for America, but it is the defeat of Bush's hawkish policies in the world," Khamenei said in remarks reported by Iran's student news agency ISNA on Friday.

"Since Washington's hostile and hawkish policies have always been against the Iranian nation, this defeat is actually an obvious victory for the Iranian nation."

The Democrats wrested control of both houses of Congress from the Republicans in this week's mid-term elections, partly because of voter concern over the war in Iraq.

Khamenei, a senior cleric in power since 1989, has the last word on matters of state in Iran's complex system of Islamic rule, while the government, under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is in charge of day-to-day decision making.

"The result of this election indicates that the majority of American people are dissatisfied and are fed up with the policies of the American administration," the IRNA state news agency quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

Khamenei said military maneuvers in the Gulf this week in which Iranian forces tested new missile systems showed Iran was ready to face any threat.

But, he said: "With the scandalous defeat of America's policies in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon and Afghanistan, America's threats are empty threats on an international scale."

Khamenei condemned Israel for its artillery attack on Wednesday in Gaza which killed 18 civilians, and also the "silence" of Western nations over "this great oppression".

"The daily crimes by the savage Zionists in Gaza once more prove that holding talks with this occupying regime is of no use."

________________________________________________

But, the enemy pays no attention to American elections... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 11:08 am
In response to Iran's irrationally optimistic post-mortem on Tuesday's election, I much prefer Charles Krauthammer's take on it. I think he hit the mark square on (emphasis is mine):

November 10, 2006
Only a Minor Earthquake
By Charles Krauthammer

WASHINGTON -- How serious is the "thumpin'" the Republicans took on Tuesday? Losing one house is significant but hardly historic. Losing both houses, however, is defeat of a different order of magnitude, the equivalent in a parliamentary system of a vote of no confidence.

On Tuesday, Democrats took control of the House and the Senate. As of this writing, they won 29 House seats (with a handful still in the balance), slightly below the post-1930 average for the six-year itch in a two-term presidency. They took the Senate by the thinnest of margins -- a one-vote majority, delivered to them by a margin of 7,188 votes in Virginia and 2,847 in Montana.

Because both houses have gone Democratic, the election is correctly seen as an expression of no confidence in the central issue of the campaign: Iraq. It was not so much the war itself as the perceived administration policy of "stay the course,'' which implied endless intervention with no victory in sight. The president got the message. Hence the summary resignation of the designated fall guy, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

Nonetheless, the difference between taking one house versus both -- and thus between normal six-year incumbent party losses and a major earthquake that shakes the presidency -- was razor thin in this election. A switch of just 1,424 votes in Montana would have kept the Senate Republican.

A margin this close should no longer surprise us. For this entire decade the country has been evenly divided politically. The Republicans had control but by very small majorities. In 2000, the presidential election was settled by a ridiculously small margin. And the Senate ended up deadlocked 50-50. All the changes since then have been minor. Until now.

But the great Democratic wave of 2006 is nothing remotely like the great structural change some are trumpeting. It was an event-driven election that produced the shift of power one would expect when a finely balanced electorate swings mildly one way or the other.

This is not realignment. As has been the case for decades, American politics continues to be fought between the 40-yard lines. The Europeans fight goal line to goal line, from socialist left to the ultranationalist right. On the American political spectrum, these extremes are negligible. American elections are fought on much narrower ideological grounds. In this election, the Democrats carried the ball from their own 45-yard line to the Republican 45-yard line.

The fact that the Democrats crossed midfield does not make this election a great anti-conservative swing. Republican losses included a massacre of moderate Republicans in the Northeast and Midwest. And Democratic gains included the addition of many conservative Democrats, brilliantly recruited by Rep. Rahm Emanuel with classic Clintonian triangulation. Hence Heath Shuler of North Carolina, anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-tax -- and now a Democratic congressman.

The result is that both parties have moved to the right. The Republicans have shed the last vestiges of their centrist past, the Rockefeller Republican. And the Democrats have widened their tent to bring in a new crop of blue-dog conservatives.

Moreover, ballot initiatives make the claim of a major anti-conservative swing quite problematic. In Michigan, liberal Democrats swept the gubernatorial and senatorial races, yet a ballot initiative to abolish affirmative action passed 58-42. Seven out of eight anti-gay marriage amendments to state constitutions passed. And nine states passed referendums asserting individual property rights against the government's power of eminent domain.

To muddy even more the supposed ideological significance of this election, consider who is the biggest winner of the night: Joe Lieberman. Just a few months ago, he was scorned by his party and left for dead. Now he returns to the Senate as the Democrats' 51st seat -- and holder of the balance of power. From casualty to kingmaker in three months. Not bad. His Democratic colleagues who abandoned him this summer will now treat him very well.

Lieberman won with a platform that did not trim or hedge about seeking victory in Iraq. And he did it despite having a Republican in the race who siphoned off 10 percent of the pro-war vote. All this in Connecticut, a very blue state.

The public's views on what we ought to do with the war remain mixed, as do its general ideological inclinations. What happened on Tuesday? The electorate threw the bums out in disgust with corruption and in deep dissatisfaction with current Iraq policy. Reading much more into this election is a symptom of either Republican depression or Democratic wishful thinking.
SOURCE
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 11:46 am
I read Krauthammer this morning and knew he'd pop up here. It's a fairly predictable "Nyah, nyah...missed me" column. Kristol will be voicing the same. It's a hunt for or an insistance on fluid left in the glass.

But he's wrong. Important constituencies, latinos, blacks, catholics, jews, independents and even evangelicals have shifted allegiance in substantial numbers. As gathering up these constituencies (shaving off increasing percentages of them from the dems) has been a fundamental RNC strategy and desire, this election isn't good news for the RNC. It seems clearly wishful thinking to imagine that this election is not comparable to 94.

Perhaps more significantly, Krauthammer isn't going to acknowledge that the election is about more than Irq "not going well". The shift from a neoconservative ideology back towards a more "realist" framework for foreign affairs is not something he wishes to see, but it has happened in in the military and certainly in the party itself, not to mention within the electorate. There is ZERO chance now that the neoconservative push to bomb Iran will gain a receptive ear anywhere other than in the neoconservative circles and within the more radical portion of the Israeli government. Pre-emption is dead and has been for probably two or three years now. Rumsfeld's dismissal is an inevitable, if far too belated, indication of this change.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 12:04 pm
This comment, from the Weekly Standard, seems right...

Quote:
THE LESSON of 2006 is that the South is not enough space to build a national governing majority. You have to branch out to other parts of the country, such as the Interior West, Pacific Coast, Northeast Corridor, Midwest, and elsewhere. Instead Democrats are surging in those places, and Republicans are increasingly confined to (high-growth) areas in the Sun Belt.

It would be difficult for the South to become more Republican. But it's easy for New England and the Northeast Corridor to become more Democratic. And tonight voters chose liberal Democrats over moderate-to-liberal Republicans in Rhode Island, Connecticut, and New York.

A similar thing happened in Pennsylvania, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, and Minnesota. Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Ohio were Bush targets in 2004. Today they are trending solidly Democratic. As for Indiana and Ohio, in these states corruption and the economic transformation wrought by globalization have seriously diminished the chances for future Republican success.

Finally, there's the Interior West, where Democrats are projected to make gains in Montana, Colorado, Arizona, and maybe even Wyoming. The Democrats who are successful in these states might be a little less liberal than their brethren along the coasts, but they will still caucus with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid all the same.

So the geographical sphere of Democratic power has expanded, while the sphere of Republican power has contracted. That's clearly bad news for the GOP--in 2006 and beyond.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/921bvzsc.asp
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 12:05 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Khamenei calls elections a victory for Iran

________________________________________________

But, the enemy pays no attention to American elections... Rolling Eyes



You people are sick, really sick and you personify this sickness, McG. You always have to have an enemy and yet you're the ones who create the enemies.

That Iran should have zero trust in the USA to do what's right, moral and just is simply a matter of history, a matter of fact. The USA was a terrorist country that interfered in Iran and caused the deaths of thousands.

Why do you think it important for the US to remember, as per your avatar, but it's not important that the Iranians remember what the USA did to their country?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 12:16 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
His thesis is clearly to illustrate that you have the luxury of being able to look down your nose at us and criticize us and call us the "evil empire" purely because of the protection we provide to you. I will imagine you will take exception to that too, but deny it if you can. That was the message in the piece Tico posted.


If your (or his) thesis is that the US is protecting Europe from terrorist attacks by fighting a war in Iraq, then, yes, I take exception to that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 12:35 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
His thesis is clearly to illustrate that you have the luxury of being able to look down your nose at us and criticize us and call us the "evil empire" purely because of the protection we provide to you. I will imagine you will take exception to that too, but deny it if you can. That was the message in the piece Tico posted.


If your (or his) thesis is that the US is protecting Europe from terrorist attacks by fighting a war in Iraq, then, yes, I take exception to that.


That was not his thesis nor is that what I said.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 12:47 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
His thesis is clearly to illustrate that you have the luxury of being able to look down your nose at us and criticize us and call us the "evil empire" purely because of the protection we provide to you. I will imagine you will take exception to that too, but deny it if you can. That was the message in the piece Tico posted.


If your (or his) thesis is that the US is protecting Europe from terrorist attacks by fighting a war in Iraq, then, yes, I take exception to that.


OE

This isn't the sort of idea which is much available for reflection with foxfyre, and quite a few other americans. It is simply a matter of faith about America - the mythological understanding of its role in the world and its superior goodness.

Probably no better book on the subject than this one...
http://www.amazon.com/America-Right-Wrong-American-Nationalism/dp/0195168402
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 12:52 pm
And blatham bristles just as much as OE.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 01:28 pm
"Bristle"? Not sure if you have the right word there. It's rather more akin to how one might respond hearing Borat describe himself as the handsomest man in the world.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 02:06 pm
So apparently the RNC asked Steele to replace Mehlman

What do you guys think? Good news? Bad news?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 02:10 pm
I consider Mehlman an unusually bright and effective party chair. It won't be easy to replace him with someone of equal calibre. I don't know anything at all about Steele other than via the appearances I saw brief segments of through the last few weeks.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 05:32 pm
I think its further evidence to me that Steele is a Republican before he is anything else.
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 05:43 pm
What would that "anything else" be, snood?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 08:58 am
As a consequence of the Bush administration's diminished credibility re Iraq and mid east engagement of the sort he pushed the US and world into (the election being the proof of that pudding) folks will be less likely to disregard analyses which don't match the Bush propaganda tilt...

And, I mean, it isn't as if this person ought to be disregarded through being poorly informed or biased...
Quote:
British Muslims have been driven towards extremism and terrorist acts because of the UK's part in the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, according to the head of MI5.

Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller's warning of the violent threat from more than 1,600 suspects in 200 groups lasting more than a generation, was backed yesterday by Tony Blair.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1963273.ece
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 09:51 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
What would that "anything else" be, snood?


Well that's an interesting question. I wonder if it will get answered.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 10:13 am
Re: Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III
McGentrix wrote:
Could the liberals on A2K please not pollute this thread into an anti-Bush thread? I'd prefer not having to weed through the garbage to read a post in a thread topic I am interested in.

This is a BUSH SUPPORTER thread. If you do not support Bush, please feel free not to read or post here.


If the non-Bush supporters stopped posting on this thread you guys wouldn't have anything to write about. So stop whining, McG and get on with defending yourselves. Isn't that the point? Keep regurgitating the party line, no matter how thinly woven it is these days and maybe you'll be able to maintain some semblance of belief in a lost cause.

Stop hammering on the opposition. You know you love us. Where would you be without us?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 10:23 am
Re: Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III
Lola wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Could the liberals on A2K please not pollute this thread into an anti-Bush thread? I'd prefer not having to weed through the garbage to read a post in a thread topic I am interested in.

This is a BUSH SUPPORTER thread. If you do not support Bush, please feel free not to read or post here.


If the non-Bush supporters stopped posting on this thread you guys wouldn't have anything to write about.


Why don't we try it and see?

Quote:
So stop whining, McG and get on with defending yourselves. Isn't that the point? Keep regurgitating the party line, no matter how thinly woven it is these days and maybe you'll be able to maintain some semblance of belief in a lost cause.


Were you bored and thought you'd just drop in and stir the turd? Is blatham not doing his job correctly?

Quote:
Stop hammering on the opposition. You know you love us. Where would you be without us?


Cloud nine?
0 Replies
 
 

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