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Bush Supporters' Aftermath Thread III

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 02:30 pm
I see you're conveniently ignoring the part above that I made bold, McGentrix. That was a plain lie on Sowell's part.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 02:32 pm
nimh wrote:
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I doubt many will take the time to read that Tico. But Dr. Sowell is right on target as he most usually is.


To bad he doesn't ever get the credit he deserves.


Too bad he sometimes makes things up as he goes along.

Quote:
Breaking news from another planet: A headline at the National Review Online describes John Kerry as a "media darling" and complains that the press has "circled the wagons around the junior senator from Massachusetts."

That bit of handiwork tops a column by Thomas Sowell that's chock full of stuff you might charitably call "truthiness." Sowell quotes Kerry saying that he would "apologize to no one" for what he said about Iraq, but he neglects to mention that Kerry subsequently apologized to anyone who was offended. [..] Sowell says that Kerry "to this day ... has never signed the simple form" required to release his military records. In fact, as the Boston Globe reported at the time, Kerry signed Standard Form 180, which "waived privacy restrictions and authorized the release of his full military and medical records," in May 2005.

What about this notion that the media has "circled the wagons" around Kerry? Maybe we missed all the wagon circling amid the 24/7 coverage of Kerry's blunder. Every time we turned on CNN or MSNBC Wednesday, we saw somebody beating up Kerry for his comments; at one point Wednesday, Fox's John Gibson went so far as to refer to Kerry's words as "off-color remarks."

What did Sowell see this week that we didn't? He focuses almost entirely on a San Francisco Chronicle headline that said, "Bush, GOP seize on Kerry's gibe to turn focus from war in Iraq." Sowell asks: "Has any Democrat ever been accused by the mainstream media of 'seizing on' some statement by a Republican, much less have bad motives imputed?"

Well, let's see. From the New York Times, June 24, 2005: "Democrats seized on Mr. Rove's comments, clearly hoping to put Republicans on the defensive." From the Washington Post, July 12, 2005: "Democrats seized on" Bush's vow to fire anyone involved in leaking Valerie Plame's identity [..]. From the Associated Press, Aug. 12, 2004: "Kerry seized on Bush's comments" about a national sale tax in an effort to "reverse partisan stereotypes by portraying the Republican president as the tax raiser and himself as a tax cutter." From Knight Ridder. Oct. 27, 2006: "[..] some Democrats seized on Cheney's comments" about "dunking" detainees in water [..].

Sowell should try "the Google" sometime. There's no telling what you can find out there.

(link)

Makes it kinda hard to take what he says at face value.


This is the full quote of what Sowell said: "Kerry has said that he would, that he has, and yet to this day he has never signed the simple form that Bush signed to make the facts available to all." LINK

Yes, Kerry eventually signed the form, but with conditions. He only authorized them to be released to the Boston Globe and the LA Times. He, in fact, has never signed the SF 180 to make his military records available to all. He signed it to make them available only to a select few.

Not a lie, nimh. The lie is told by salon.com, and retold here by you.

-----

Sowell's quote, in context:

Thomas Sowell wrote:
This is not the first time the media have circled the wagons around Senator Kerry. Despite the fact that Kerry has shamelessly tried to exploit his military service in Vietnam decades later, Tim Russert is the only major media commentator who has ever asked him why he will not open his military records, as President Bush has done.

Kerry has said that he would, that he has, and yet to this day he has never signed the simple form that Bush signed to make the facts available to all.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 02:46 pm
Sowell's piece is hardly worthy of much discussion. Take the first sentence...
Quote:
European nations protesting Saddam Hussein's death sentence, as they protested against forcing secrets out of captured terrorists, should tell us all we need to know about the internal degeneration of Western society, where so many confuse squeamishness with morality.

The protests in Europe against Sadaam's death sentence have nothing at all to do with Sadaam, nor are they related in any way to 'terrorism' or torture or to views on how to proceed as regards the problem of Islamic fundamentalism. The implications are fallacious. European nations, like most nations in the world, reject capital punishment as on both moral grounds and functional or pragmatic grounds (no diminishment in instances of the crime we'd wish to see less of.)

When someone begins a column trying to slide such deceits past the reader, then that someone is a schmuck.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 02:51 pm
Why all the concern over hearings and subpoenas?

Only those with something to hide should be concerned over the prospect.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 02:55 pm
This is a rather pathetic opinion piece by Sowell. He seems to be quite disgruntled by the fact that the "Coalition of the Willing" was neither and that the US-led invasion of Iraq ended up to be what others called it right from the beginning: a quagmire. His only argument is this one: other western nations didn't follow us into the Iraq adventure, so they must be cowards, softened by decades without a war. Very nice. Maybe he wants the Third Reich back, or Napoleon or Franco. There seems to be a certain nostalgic sentiment for dictatorships of yore. Just like, uhm, ancient Rome, ya know?

He doesn't mention that the "paralyzation of the West", the unwillingness of most other western nations to send large numbers of troops into a souvereign country was not unwillingness to fight a "war on terror". But of course he doesn't have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge the efforts other nations have made, e.g. in Afghanistan. In fact, there are more troops from other countries stationed in Afghanistan than there are American troops. Isn't that just a wee bit weird, considering that the blame for 9/11 was put squarely at Osama bin Laden's and, by implication, the Taliban's feet?

Oh, and about Europeans being to risk-averse, too soft, etc. - he might want to consider the number of troops European nations have sent not only to Afghanistan, but sent for the current UNIFIL mission and compare that with the number of US troops. Why, exactly, didn't the US send troops into Lebanon? America too soft? Too risk-averse? Oh, maybe the decades without an attack on American soil have left Americans with the elusion that they are invulnerable? See, anyone can make ridiculous claims...

And yes, by all means, follow Sowell's advice and don't teach your children about what has been done in your nation's name in the past. When talking about genocide, talk about Armenians. When talking about slavery, talk about pirates. Sure.

He's talking about Western civilization. Well, he's partially right there. Western civilization has been something that other nations around the globe have at times been admiring. Sometimes not without a certain envy about the achievements.

Where he gets it wrong is when he says that Western civilization is the ability to "annihilate our enemies". That's not Western civilization. That's raw power. That's what the USSR had, too. Or what China has, or Pakistan, for that matter. But civilization is not about power. It's about values. It's about morality.

It's about not torturing people, by the way. It's about not imprisoning innocent people for years without trial. Not abducting people in the middle of the night. Not spying on your citizens. Not invading souvereign nations on a flimsy pretext.

In other words: if you don't want to be be seen as an "evil empire", stop acting like one.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 02:58 pm
blatham wrote:
Sowell's piece is hardly worthy of much discussion.


And yet it sure has created a lot of discussion, hasn't it?

Quote:
Take the first sentence...
Quote:
European nations protesting Saddam Hussein's death sentence, as they protested against forcing secrets out of captured terrorists, should tell us all we need to know about the internal degeneration of Western society, where so many confuse squeamishness with morality.

The protests in Europe against Sadaam's death sentence have nothing at all to do with Sadaam, nor are they related in any way to 'terrorism' or torture or to views on how to proceed as regards the problem of Islamic fundamentalism. The implications are fallacious. European nations, like most nations in the world, reject capital punishment as on both moral grounds and functional or pragmatic grounds (no diminishment in instances of the crime we'd wish to see less of.)

When someone begins a column trying to slide such deceits past the reader, then that someone is a schmuck.


Sowell made the point he wanted to make: Europe is "soft and indulge themselves in illusions about brutal realities and dangers." Your observation viz Europe's attitude toward capital punishment does not render Sowell's point incorrect, much less deceitful. In fact, it seems as if you completely failed to grasp the point he was making.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:11 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
In fact, it seems as if you completely failed to grasp the point he was making.


I'd be interested in what point you think he was making...
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:13 pm
old europe wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
In fact, it seems as if you completely failed to grasp the point he was making.


I'd be interested in what point you think he was making...


Reread my last post, perhaps a bit more slowly, and see if that's enlightening.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:16 pm
Let me add some emphasis:

old europe wrote:
I'd be interested in what point you think he was making...


... as in "in your own words".
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:19 pm
Some emphasis of my own:

old europe wrote:
Let me add some emphasis:

old europe wrote:
I'd be interested in what point you think he was making...


Tico wrote:
Reread my last post, perhaps a bit more slowly, and see if that's enlightening.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:27 pm
old europe wrote:
... as in "in your own words".


Hold on ... you added a little bit to your post.

Let me get this straight: You want me to tell you what I think Sowell's point was, "in my own words," even though I just explained what I think Sowell's point was, in HIS own words? Why on earth would you want me to do that? His point was clear on its face. You disagree with his point, and did so in your prior post.

Now it appears you want to enunciate your disagreement with Sowell's point in response to my attempt to articulate Sowell's point using my words instead of his? Do you really?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:27 pm
<sheesh>

Okay. Let me ask you this up front: did you paste Sowell's piece without commentary because you agree with it, because Sowell's words are a xerox of your thoughts, or because you have any thoughts of your own on that topic?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:42 pm
old europe wrote:
<sheesh>

Okay. Let me ask you this up front: did you paste Sowell's piece without commentary because you agree with it, because Sowell's words are a xerox of your thoughts, or because you have any thoughts of your own on that topic?


I posted his article because it resonated with me, and I believed this thread was an appropriate location for its posting.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 04:32 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Sowell's piece is hardly worthy of much discussion.


And yet it sure has created a lot of discussion, hasn't it?

Quote:
Take the first sentence...
Quote:
European nations protesting Saddam Hussein's death sentence, as they protested against forcing secrets out of captured terrorists, should tell us all we need to know about the internal degeneration of Western society, where so many confuse squeamishness with morality.

The protests in Europe against Sadaam's death sentence have nothing at all to do with Sadaam, nor are they related in any way to 'terrorism' or torture or to views on how to proceed as regards the problem of Islamic fundamentalism. The implications are fallacious. European nations, like most nations in the world, reject capital punishment as on both moral grounds and functional or pragmatic grounds (no diminishment in instances of the crime we'd wish to see less of.)

When someone begins a column trying to slide such deceits past the reader, then that someone is a schmuck.


Sowell made the point he wanted to make: Europe is "soft and indulge themselves in illusions about brutal realities and dangers." Your observation viz Europe's attitude toward capital punishment does not render Sowell's point incorrect, much less deceitful. In fact, it seems as if you completely failed to grasp the point he was making.


That's incoherent, not merely in denying the obvious implications he forwarded, but in the consequences you are now suggesting...anyone against capital punishment is, in this 'logical' formulation of yours, "soft and indulges themselves about brutal realities and dangers." Sowell means one or the other and both are fallacious.

But let's take the last sentence instead (for context, the last three)...
Quote:

Sowell is big on "annihilation". He's not, we'll note, big on Britain any longer because, obviously, Britain isn't big enough on annihilation any longer.

The idiocy of the notion that western civ would be or can be annihilated is so vast an idiocy that you are compelled to find no need to think for even a few seconds about it.

No less idiotic is the notion that the 'enemies' can be annihilated. Unless, of course, you and Sowell want to start dropping zyklon B from satellites into those muslimish places.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 04:38 pm
Mubarak and other allies in the region have some thoughts about hanging Hussein...

-----------------
"Carrying out this verdict will explode violence like waterfalls in Iraq," Mubarak was quoted as saying by state-run Egyptian newspapers. Hanging Saddam "will transform (Iraq) into blood pools and lead to a deepening of the sectarian and ethnic conflicts."

-----------------

http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8L9PK801.html
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 05:14 pm
In looking through these posts I see why I tend to avoid the political threads; there are too much unexamined assumptions/biases to deal with; too much incoherency (mainly in the form of the exploitation of half-truths) to deal with; and worst of all, too much insincerity to put up with.
I guess I lack the energy for such crap. Give me the sincere obscurities of the philosophy (and even the religion) forums any time.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 05:22 pm
JLNobody wrote:
In looking through these posts I see why I tend to avoid the political threads; there are too much unexamined assumptions/biases to deal with; too much incoherency (mainly in the form of the exploitation of half-truths) to deal with; and worst of all, too much insincerity to put up with.
I guess I lack the energy for such crap. Give me the sincere obscurities of the philosophy (and even the religion) forums any time.


Well, it's pretty easy to sympathize with this. But, as the fella said, if we leave all this stuff to mediocrities, then we are destined to be ruled by mediocrities.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 07:43 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
This is the full quote of what Sowell said: "Kerry has said that he would, that he has, and yet to this day he has never signed the simple form that Bush signed to make the facts available to all." LINK

Yes, Kerry eventually signed the form, but with conditions. He only authorized them to be released to the Boston Globe and the LA Times. He, in fact, has never signed the SF 180 to make his military records available to all. He signed it to make them available only to a select few.

Not a lie, nimh. The lie is told by salon.com, and retold here by you.

Ah. Good catch. Good fact-checking. Careless (at the least) of the Salon author, Tim Grieve, to selectively quote that sentence.

Not the "plain lie" I called it, then, on the part of Sowell.

I would, however, contend that both Sowell and Grieve are guilty on the count of omission. In the same way, even (and I note that you in turn called Salon's reading a "lie").

This is what Sowell wrote, if I may add yet another bit of adjoining text to your quote:

Quote:
Tim Russert is the only major media commentator who has ever asked him why he will not open his military records, as President Bush has done.

Kerry has said that he would, that he has, and yet to this day he has never signed the simple form that Bush signed to make the facts available to all.


Does this suggest that Kerry has never "opened his military records"? I'd say it clearly does. You'd have to be pretty keenly informed and concentrated to catch the bit where Sowell's sentence leaves open the hypothetical possibility that Kerry did actually open his military records, but just not in the same way as Bush did.

Sowell and Grieve do the exact same thing here.

Grieve wrote that, "In fact, as the Boston Globe reported at the time, Kerry signed Standard Form 180, which 'waived privacy restrictions and authorized the release of his full military and medical records,' in May 2005." Which is true. He just conveniently omits to add that Kerry signed the release only to a limited audience.

Grieve also wrote that "Sowell says that Kerry 'to this day ... has never signed the simple form' required to release his military records." Which is true, it's not a lie - Sowell did say that. But in adding the subsequent sentence, Grieve implied that Sowell had said Kerry had not signed any version of the form. When Sowell had in fact just conveniently ignored the possibility of there being another way to sign the release form, which Kerry happened to have done.

Sowell, in turn, writes that Kerry "never signed the simple form that Bush signed to make the facts available to all". Which is true, he didnt sign that form in such a way that the facts would be available to all. But he omits the inconvenient fact that Kerry did actually sign that same form in a way that made those facts available at least to investigative journalists of two papers.

So what do we have here? Basically, Grieve was happy to give off the impression that Sowell said Kerry never signed any form to open his records, when in fact Sowell did not do so - he in turn had been happy to just give and leave the reader with that impression.

Both cleverly avoiding the plain lie that I accused Sowell, and you Salon, of. But being pretty disingenious.

Pretty sad state of affairs, if you think about it.

But the way I see it, either youre OK with both, or with neither. I'm with neither.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 08:41 pm
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
Sowell's piece is hardly worthy of much discussion.


And yet it sure has created a lot of discussion, hasn't it?

Quote:
Take the first sentence...
Quote:
European nations protesting Saddam Hussein's death sentence, as they protested against forcing secrets out of captured terrorists, should tell us all we need to know about the internal degeneration of Western society, where so many confuse squeamishness with morality.

The protests in Europe against Sadaam's death sentence have nothing at all to do with Sadaam, nor are they related in any way to 'terrorism' or torture or to views on how to proceed as regards the problem of Islamic fundamentalism. The implications are fallacious. European nations, like most nations in the world, reject capital punishment as on both moral grounds and functional or pragmatic grounds (no diminishment in instances of the crime we'd wish to see less of.)

When someone begins a column trying to slide such deceits past the reader, then that someone is a schmuck.


Sowell made the point he wanted to make: Europe is "soft and indulge themselves in illusions about brutal realities and dangers." Your observation viz Europe's attitude toward capital punishment does not render Sowell's point incorrect, much less deceitful. In fact, it seems as if you completely failed to grasp the point he was making.


That's incoherent, not merely in denying the obvious implications he forwarded, but in the consequences you are now suggesting...anyone against capital punishment is, in this 'logical' formulation of yours, "soft and indulges themselves about brutal realities and dangers." Sowell means one or the other and both are fallacious.


It's not "incoherent," blatham ... its basic reading comprehension. If you are getting caught up in trying to create implications that don't exist, that's not my problem. It's not my logical formulation ... it's simply the point being forwarded by Sowell. Now, whether you believe he intended the one or the other, you might believe it to be fallacious, but that doesn't mean you are correct.

Quote:
But let's take the last sentence instead (for context, the last three)...
Quote:

Sowell is big on "annihilation". He's not, we'll note, big on Britain any longer because, obviously, Britain isn't big enough on annihilation any longer.


If you read him closely, you'd see he's talking about standing up for self-preservation and self-defense. He's big on that.

Quote:
The idiocy of the notion that western civ would be or can be annihilated is so vast an idiocy that you are compelled to find no need to think for even a few seconds about it.


I wonder how many Romans believed the same.

Quote:
No less idiotic is the notion that the 'enemies' can be annihilated. Unless, of course, you and Sowell want to start dropping zyklon B from satellites into those muslimish places.


Quite a few are being "annihilated" right now in Iraq.

Yours is, without a doubt, the attitude Sowell is talking against. It is the attitude that believes it is impossible to keep Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons, so why try. Or even worse, an attitude that thinks it is only fair that Iran have nuclear weapons, because the United States or Isreal do. It is the attitude of appeasement.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 09:00 pm
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
This is the full quote of what Sowell said: "Kerry has said that he would, that he has, and yet to this day he has never signed the simple form that Bush signed to make the facts available to all." LINK

Yes, Kerry eventually signed the form, but with conditions. He only authorized them to be released to the Boston Globe and the LA Times. He, in fact, has never signed the SF 180 to make his military records available to all. He signed it to make them available only to a select few.

Not a lie, nimh. The lie is told by salon.com, and retold here by you.

Ah. Good catch. Good fact-checking. Careless (at the least) of the Salon author, Tim Grieve, to selectively quote that sentence.

Not the "plain lie" I called it, then, on the part of Sowell.

I would, however, contend that both Sowell and Grieve are guilty on the count of omission. In the same way, even (and I note that you in turn called Salon's reading a "lie").


Well, I did not really think Salon told a lie, but as you say, is guilty of omission and being misleading. If Grieve was intentionally misleading, there are many who would believe that to be a lie.

Quote:
This is what Sowell wrote, if I may add yet another bit of adjoining text to your quote:

Quote:
Tim Russert is the only major media commentator who has ever asked him why he will not open his military records, as President Bush has done.

Kerry has said that he would, that he has, and yet to this day he has never signed the simple form that Bush signed to make the facts available to all.


Does this suggest that Kerry has never "opened his military records"? I'd say it clearly does. You'd have to be pretty keenly informed and concentrated to catch the bit where Sowell's sentence leaves open the hypothetical possibility that Kerry did actually open his military records, but just not in the same way as Bush did.

Sowell and Grieve do the exact same thing here.

Grieve wrote that, "In fact, as the Boston Globe reported at the time, Kerry signed Standard Form 180, which 'waived privacy restrictions and authorized the release of his full military and medical records,' in May 2005." Which is true. He just conveniently omits to add that Kerry signed the release only to a limited audience.

Grieve also wrote that "Sowell says that Kerry 'to this day ... has never signed the simple form' required to release his military records." Which is true, it's not a lie - Sowell did say that. But in adding the subsequent sentence, Grieve implied that Sowell had said Kerry had not signed any version of the form. When Sowell had in fact just conveniently ignored the possibility of there being another way to sign the release form, which Kerry happened to have done.

Sowell, in turn, writes that Kerry "never signed the simple form that Bush signed to make the facts available to all". Which is true, he didnt sign that form in such a way that the facts would be available to all. But he omits the inconvenient fact that Kerry did actually sign that same form in a way that made those facts available at least to investigative journalists of two papers.

So what do we have here? Basically, Grieve was happy to give off the impression that Sowell said Kerry never signed any form to open his records, when in fact Sowell did not do so - he in turn had been happy to just give and leave the reader with that impression.

Both cleverly avoiding the plain lie that I accused Sowell, and you Salon, of. But being pretty disingenious.

Pretty sad state of affairs, if you think about it.

But the way I see it, either youre OK with both, or with neither. I'm with neither.


While I see your point, I don't see it the same way you do. While I can see that both have the possibility of being misleading, I believe Grieve was either being intentionally misleading, or grieviously incompetent. Grieve was trying to "get" Sowell, and did so by being misleading. He needed to be misleading to make his point. Sowell was trying to make a point that Kerry never opened his military records as Bush did, and did not need to be misleading to make that point. Bush allowed everyone to see his records without restrictions. Sowell clearly does not consider that only allowing a far left rag such as the Boston Globe or the LA Times to see the records is "opening" the records. Could it be misleading? Sure. Is it intentionally misleading? I doubt it. I think his point is the larger one concerning the relative level of "openness" of the records, which is a fair reading of the words he did use. The fact that Kerry did open his records to those two newspapers does not take away from his main point that Kerry did not open his records "as President Bush has done." I think it's more a case where his wording could be improved to better convey his meaning.
0 Replies
 
 

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