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WHO WILL WIN IN NOVEMBER?

 
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 02:31 pm
a gracious winner and a courageous loser... what America is all about... Jesus I have a lump in my throat....I'm all verklempt.... how 'bout a group hug?


Kumbayah my Lord....Kumbayah.....
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 02:55 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
I already did OE.


Yes, you said

Foxfyre wrote:
I certainly did not vote for the person in charge of counting those ballots


However, I admit that I don't have much of a clue when it comes to the actual procedure. I've been learning a lot re voting machines and primaries recently.

But how, specifically, do the votes get counted? Who's responsible for overseeing the procedure? Why do you get to vote for people in charge of counting the votes, and who is in charge when those people get elected? Very Happy

Seriously, though. I'd appreciate the input!


In almost all of the states, the State Board of Elections is an agency of the office of that State's Secretary of State. Each state in the United States is divided into counties or parishes, and each county or parish board of elections is a subordinate agency of the State Board of Elections. The people who count ballots, or supervise the counting of ballots, are, therefore, under the supervision of the Secretary of State, by the agency of that Secretary of State's departmental employees.

Fox may claim that she didn't vote for whoever currently holds the office of Secretary of State in her state, but she certainly does vote for the office, and for all of the responsible parties in the state (her state representatives and senator[s], the Governor and the Secretary of State) who employ the people who are responsible for counting the ballots.

Her claim is equivalent to complaining about the highway patrol even though she may well have voted for the Governor who has cut their budget and laid off officers, having done so by giving the Public Safety Director his or her marching orders. That was a pretty damned feeble attempt to deny responsibility as a voting citizen.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:06 pm
Setanta wrote:
In almost all of the states, the State Board of Elections is an agency of the office of that State's Secretary of State. Each state in the United States is divided into counties or parishes, and each county or parish board of elections is a subordinate agency of the State Board of Elections. The people who count ballots, or supervise the counting of ballots, are, therefore, under the supervision of the Secretary of State, by the agency of that Secretary of State's departmental employees.


Thanks.

So is there a general rule for how the county/parish/city boards of election are composed, or is this entirely up the respective county/parish/city? How about independent observers? How about observers from every party?

And in a state or national election, who gets to set the rules for the voting process? Is it the state, or is that, too, up to the county or city or borough?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:11 pm
McGentrix wrote:
How many western countries with 300 million people hold elections every year Nimh?

The EU (population 460 million) holds elections for its parliament every five years. While the EU is not a country, it might as well be in terms of election logisitics. I don't remember irregularities of American proportions in any of our elections.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:14 pm
Can't think of anyone I'd more wish to harmonize Kumbaya with than you, teddy.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:22 pm
old europe wrote:
Setanta wrote:
In almost all of the states, the State Board of Elections is an agency of the office of that State's Secretary of State. Each state in the United States is divided into counties or parishes, and each county or parish board of elections is a subordinate agency of the State Board of Elections. The people who count ballots, or supervise the counting of ballots, are, therefore, under the supervision of the Secretary of State, by the agency of that Secretary of State's departmental employees.


Thanks.

So is there a general rule for how the county/parish/city boards of election are composed, or is this entirely up the respective county/parish/city? How about independent observers? How about observers from every party?

And in a state or national election, who gets to set the rules for the voting process? Is it the state, or is that, too, up to the county or city or borough?


In New Mexico, there is a general policy/discipline set by the state, but each county sets its own procedures within that policy. In the case of the botched ballots I previously referenced however, the person in charge of distributing those ballots was Mary Herrera, Bernalillo County Clerk which made her the chief election official for our county. And she specifically is the person I haven't voted for to be in that position. And based on the problems we've had with elections in our area, I also did not vote for her to be NM Secretary of State this November and she won quite handily without my vote anyway, mostly I think on name recognition and the fact that she is a quite attractive lady.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:32 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
And apparently even the Australian system touted as an example of how to prevent voter fraud isn't immune to it:

LOOK HERE


You are a joke, Fox.
... ... ...
Fix your system, or shut up. You can't moan AND declare you have the best system in the world.


Quoting from today's Albuquerque Journal (not sure if it's online as well):

Quote:
About 100 election workers continued to tally 4,580 ballots by hand Wednesday at the warehouse, near Interstate 25 and MontaƱo NW.
And after that is finished, they still have another 3,800 provisional and "in-lieu-of" absentee ballots to examine. They will start counting those today, and County Clerk Mary Herrerra estimated it would take two days.


We count - that's the average in the polling station I work - about 1,000 ballots in 30 - 40 minutes, with not just two but to 15 and more parties.
Provisional ballots are included. That's done by the two shifts of poll workers: about 12 persons altogether.

I really think, you should either change the system or stop complaining.


Oh really? What power do you personally have to change a system that you don't like in your country? And if you have no power to change it, does that mean you won't complain?

I certainly did not vote for the person in charge of counting those ballots but enough people did that she was re-elected. It's hard to break the through the majority in this state which is heavily Democrat. Even Heather Wilson, my (GOP) congresswoman, is still hanging in the balance on those remaining ballots to be counted and she was running against a candidate who ran the world's worst campaign and is probably the most inept campaigner that has ever run for that position.



I am active in attempting to change things I do not like about my country.


If I lived in the richest and most powerful country on the planet, many of whose citizens trumpet that they have the bestest and wonderfullest democracy in the world (some appear to think they have the ONLY democracy in the world, but that is another thread) but who appeared to have an electoral system that cannot deliver on the most basic thing a democracy needs....a fair and efficient voting system....I would be part of a campaign to learn about what works, and implement it.


What appears to work here, for instance, is having an electoral commission independent of government, which runs all government elections, federal and state, instead of, as I gather you are saying you have (?) each county doing its own thing (or is that state?) which appears to instil a concern in you that, because they are Democrats in your county, or state, they are inefficient. Other Americans seem to believe that their local authorities will program machines to not count their votes, or a variety of other nefarious things will occur. I assume that the UK and Germany and other countries which appear to be able to run elections where people accept the vote as fairly counted, even when they dislike the result, could also advise the US about systems that work.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:35 pm
There are no constitutionally mandated rules, OE. Article IV, Section 4, reads, in its entirety:

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Therefore, each state more or less mimicks the central government in the composition of its government. In the states, the office of Secretary of State concerns itself with management of governance in the state (after all, none of the states are sovereign to conduct and independent foreign policy, so the office is going to vary crucially from the Federal State Department)--and acts as a controlling agency and liaison with the lower levels of government, the counties or parishes and the municipalities. That can vary from state to state as well--for example, when i lived in Virginia, municipalities were independent of the government of the counties in which they were located (and i believe this is still so).

The states have tended, especially since the Civil War, to follow the lead of the Federal government (or to do the direct opposite, as was often the case with southern states before the 1960s) in their governance. Most state constitutions mirror the United States Constitution, and concern themselves with higher degrees of civil rights than provided for in that document, and with details of state and local governance. All of the states must have a care not to violate the due process provision of the XIVth amendment, which also guarantees equality of civil rights to all citizens of the several states. Beginning in the 1880s, states have amended or re-written their own constitutions to assure that their citizens have the minimum of civil rights which are based on the United States Constitution, and that there are appropriate mechanisms and oversights to assure this. Additionally, in the last century, states have accorded to their citizens civil rights which the Supremes have declared only apply the relationship between citizens and the Federal government (many times the Supreme Court has determined that a particular provision applies only to the Federal government--so states have taken measures to assure those civil rights to their citizens).

Therefore, even when voting rights acts which only concern themselves with national elections have been passed, the states have been quick to enact similar measures. The states will act independently, of course, in matters which are soley within their own perview, but they are prone to adopt the simplest most effective governance measures which have become common among the several states. Many amendments and Federal laws govern voting, leaving states with little room to innovate or diverge from a standard practice. The XVth Amendment prohibits racial discrimination in voting. The XVIIth Amendment established popular election as the sole method for choosing United States Senators (previously, the states were free to choose or appoint Senators as they saw fit--although this amendment was ratified in 1913, many states had already passed measures for the popular election of Senators), and many states made a great many offices, therefore elective, which is why state Secretaries of State are elected officials. The XIXth Amendment gave women the vote, and once again, the Federal government lagged behind some of the states which had already enacted women's suffrage. The poll tax was not prohibited until the XXIVth Amendment was ratified in 1964, which was just one voting rights measure which grew out of the civil rights movement in the American south in the 1960s.

And that is the era from which a large measure of standardization arises in voting regulations in the United States. Any state or local government which violated the 1965 Voting Rights Act would be a prime target for ruinous litigation--it was the measure which broke the back of Jim Crow in the South. It has been extended by new measures in 1970, 1975 and 1982. As has been so common in the history of state legislation and constitutions, the states have since then quickly moved to assure that they won't be embarrassed by the glare of publicity about voting rights and procedures in their jurisdictions. This is why people (who weren't lock-step Bush supporters) were scandalized by the shenanigans of Katherine Harris in Florida before the 2000 election, when she was Secretary of State, and tens of thousands of (mostly African American) voters were stricken from the rolls based on the unsubstatiated report of a private business which had contracted to investigate the registration rolls--and many of those who thought it a bad thing had voted for Bush.

So, although each state determines the nature of its ballot, and what machines, if any, are used in the voting--the basic procedures, and guarantees of voting rights, are standard by a default consensus. Finally, in 1975, the Federal Election Commission was created to administer the implementation of the Federal Campaign Finance Act, and the states have been quick to introduce and enforce their own, internal campaign finance legislation.

If you do a web search for "State Board of Elections," you'll get hits for every one of the fifty states, and many hits which link directly to the web sites of the Secretaries of State of the various states. Additionally, state constitutions can easily be found online.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:40 pm
As far as I understand, it's especially the state law of New Mexico, which leads to the trouble just now, e.g.
- 1,060 in-lieu-of absentee ballots. These ballots are issued to voters who show up at the polls even though they have requested an absentee ballot. They must sign a statement saying they didn't receive their absentee ballot, and the in-lieu-of ballot is counted as long as the voter didn't also send in an absentee ballot. Most of these ballots ultimately are accepted and added into the election results.
- 2,400 absentee ballots that were dropped off at Election Day precincts. A new state law allows voters who haven't mailed their ballots to show up at the precincts where they are registered and drop off their ballots. Most of those were counted by machine tabulators early Wednesday and added to the unofficial election results before noon. The ones rejected by the machines became part of the group to be hand-tallied.


We don't have such. In any case, those persons still can vote at the absentee ballot polls as you can ask for an absentee ballot until the afternoon of election day.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:48 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
As far as I understand, it's especially the state law of New Mexico, which leads to the trouble just now, e.g.
- 1,060 in-lieu-of absentee ballots. These ballots are issued to voters who show up at the polls even though they have requested an absentee ballot. They must sign a statement saying they didn’t receive their absentee ballot, and the in-lieu-of ballot is counted as long as the voter didn’t also send in an absentee ballot. Most of these ballots ultimately are accepted and added into the election results.
- 2,400 absentee ballots that were dropped off at Election Day precincts. A new state law allows voters who haven’t mailed their ballots to show up at the precincts where they are registered and drop off their ballots. Most of those were counted by machine tabulators early Wednesday and added to the unofficial election results before noon. The ones rejected by the machines became part of the group to be hand-tallied.


We don't have such. In any case, those persons still can vote at the absentee ballot polls as you can ask for an absentee ballot until the afternoon of election day.


Er...I am not sure I really understand that.


Are you saying the validity of those ballots are being contested? Or that there is a delay in declaring the polls because those ballots have to be handcounted? Hand counting ain't tough...done it meself when scrutineering.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:51 pm
blatham wrote:
Can't think of anyone I'd more wish to harmonize Kumbaya with than you, teddy.


you silver tongued devil you... come wrap your mitts around my hairy back and have a bear hug....
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 03:52 pm
In New Mexico, the agency which supervises elections is the New Mexico Bureau of Election, which is an agency of the office of the Secretary of State. For those who are interested in the subject, and would prefer to have the Secretary of State's version as opposed to Fox's version, you can visit the web page of the New Mexico Secretary of State here.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Nov, 2006 04:10 pm
dlowan wrote:
Are you saying the validity of those ballots are being contested? Or that there is a delay in declaring the polls because those ballots have to be handcounted? Hand counting ain't tough...done it meself when scrutineering.


In Albuquerquw (Bernalillo County) they are handcounted now - "Slowly. Slowly. Slowly", to quote the mentioned County Clerk.
(That was moe or less a quote from today's paper.)


We handcount only and are quite fit, especially, we seem to be faster with less staff.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 06:44 am
Foxfyre wrote:
In New Mexico, there is a general policy/discipline set by the state, but each county sets its own procedures within that policy. ...


Coming back to that and the Albuquerque-based 1st District race: they are still counting there, with 3,750 Bernalillo County ballots potentially left to be counted.

I really can't get why it takes days to count a few thousand votes.
In our federal election district we've got nearly 250,000 people who can vote in federal election (you would call such "registered") and 160,000 actually did vote last time (compared to the 208,000 total votes cast in Albuquerque 1st District).

It took 2 1/2 hours to get the final provisorily result. That's for every and all votes.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 09:01 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Coming back to that and the Albuquerque-based 1st District race: they are still counting there, with 3,750 Bernalillo County ballots potentially left to be counted.


You must be kidding, right?

<scratches head>
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 09:05 am
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 12:18 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
In New Mexico, there is a general policy/discipline set by the state, but each county sets its own procedures within that policy. ...


Coming back to that and the Albuquerque-based 1st District race: they are still counting there, with 3,750 Bernalillo County ballots potentially left to be counted.

I really can't get why it takes days to count a few thousand votes.
In our federal election district we've got nearly 250,000 people who can vote in federal election (you would call such "registered") and 160,000 actually did vote last time (compared to the 208,000 total votes cast in Albuquerque 1st District).

It took 2 1/2 hours to get the final provisorily result. That's for every and all votes.


Neither can we figure out why its taking so long or why it is being done in secret. The longer it goes, the more the Wilson voters are smelling a rat.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 12:49 pm
Quote:
The Great Revulsion
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: November 10, 2006
...

This article of Krugman's is an excellent example of how Krugman, in particular, and liberal Democrats, in general, have over the last 6 years blaimed conservative Republicans for what Krugman, in particular, and liberal Democrats, in general, have themselves actually been doing.

It's the classic transference syndrome of psychotics who blame others for the wrongs they themselves commit.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 04:44 am
ican711nm wrote:
Quote:
The Great Revulsion
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: November 10, 2006
...

This article of Krugman's is an excellent example of how Krugman, in particular, and liberal Democrats, in general, have over the last 6 years blaimed conservative Republicans for what Krugman, in particular, and liberal Democrats, in general, have themselves actually been doing.

It's the classic transference syndrome of psychotics who blame others for the wrongs they themselves commit.

Can you be more specific? What exactly have Krugman and the Democrats been doing?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 05:57 am
It will be curious to see specifics in reply to thomas.


I'd like to point out the anti-semitism which sits, barely disguised, beneath Ican's "criticism" of Krugman.
0 Replies
 
 

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