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WHO WILL WIN IN NOVEMBER?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:18 pm
Did you read by any chance one of the links you've posted? Shocked
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:23 pm
Have you read any of those articles, at least? Here is an excerpt from the first one:

Quote:
The ousted Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, is refusing to concede defeat and is claiming that there were irregularities in the election result.


That' ALL that article had on voting irregularities.... come on. You should be able to do better than that.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:24 pm
Did you read any of the other ones? Is this really the level of bickering you want to go with?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:26 pm
Like the second one? Ukrainian election of 1999? Laughing
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:26 pm
McG - you need to open the links and read them before you post them.

I was particularly taken by the one from the WSW.


[I also didn't realize that you were concerned about difficulties within the Muslim community (the 2 links to the same issue in Britain)]
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:27 pm
perhaps you should spend more than 5 minutes on research when you want to back your claims, McG. Sometimes it helps.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:29 pm
Or the third link.... Azerbaijan 2003.... Laughing Western European countries, really?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:31 pm
No, it's not worth the effort to do that. If you guys all believe there is no voting irregularities in any other western country, then so be it. I'll not play the "gotcha" game with you and will instead let you believe what you want.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:31 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
perhaps you should spend more than 5 minutes on research when you want to back your claims, McG. Sometimes it helps.


Seems to me that McG came up with a number of good examples of voter 'irregulartities' that are apparently not unique to the United States.

It may, however be time to resurrect this old article. How would you guys feel about a public ballot instead of secret ballot to end voter fraud once and for all?

Ending voter fraud
By Bruce Walker
web posted October 25, 2004

Voter fraud is an unnecessary problem. Not only is voter fraud easy to solve, but ending voter fraud forever would actually make it easier for people to vote and end the need for poll watchers, election lawyers, and vote registration campaigns. How? Abolish the secret ballot.

The stakes could not be higher for America. Democrats steal elections all over the Republic from mayoral races in cities like Philadelphia and gubernatorial elections in states like Maryland and senatorial races in states like Louisiana to presidential elections themselves.

Almost all serious historians agree that the shenanigans of Democrat bosses stole the 1960 presidential election for John Kennedy. The risk to America, however, was slight. John Kennedy was an imperfect man but a decent president, certainly a patriot and someone who sought to inspire American greatness, whether it was in defending freedom or in landing on the Moon.

Venal, pampered Leftist politicians like Gore and Kerry are not Kennedy. Stealing elections for men like that is simply business as usual. This risks making the American Republic the equivalent of any of the myriad other Democrat machines - Tammany Hall, Boss Daley, Boss Hague or the KKK South - which have corrupted state and local governments within America.

The Australian ballot (or secret ballot) was when the dominion democracies of Australia adopted it in the 19th Century. Even at its inception, there were obvious problems with a secret ballot. When representative democratic bodies, like Congress, state legislatures or city councils vote, we rightly insist that the votes be public, not secret.

Part of the reason for that is so that our representatives can be held accountable, but another equally important reason is to make sure that voter fraud in those assemblies does not occur. Consider how Democrats would react if Senate votes on cloture for judicial nominations were all cast secretly and Vice President Cheney, as President of the Senate, announced cloture had passed by a margin of 62 to 38. Does anyone doubt Democrats would cry "Foul!"?

The key to voter fraud: the secret ballot
What makes it certain that votes are not stolen in the United States Senate, the Nebraska Legislature or the Topeka City Council? Votes are publicly cast. Votes publicly cast can be publicly counted and publicly accounted. That certainty is vital to a healthy democracy.

Many parts of America, those dominated by Democrat machines, produce results that reflect crimes much worse than stolen votes. Assume the Vice President Cheney, after a secret ballot vote of the United States Senate on cloture for judicial appointments, announced that cloture had passed by a margin of 75 to 50, the requisite third thirds majority.

Because there are only 100 votes in the Senate, but 125 votes were cast, there was obviously fraud, but the fraud was not stolen votes but invented voted. Places in key states now have more hypothetical "voters" registered to vote than citizens in the area. Who doubts that the same Democrat operatives who register fictitious persons will cast those fictitious ballots for Democrats?

If there was no secret ballot, then hanging chads, dimpled chads and the like would all be irrelevant. An individual could simply be asked, if there was any question at all, what he intended by a particular vote. More to the point, each registered voter could have his vote available as a matter of public record and correct it, if it was not properly recorded.

Eligibility to vote could also be much easier to determine. Assume, for example, that a state had a thirty day residency requirement and a mailing address requirement and nothing more. If someone registered to vote and voted in violation to those requirements, not only could the illegal voter be prosecuted - along with any party hacks who aided him - but the particular illegal vote could also be identified and cast out as well.

What about the great dread of intimidation? That did not prevent the United States from having a very vigorous, closely competitive system of elections during the decades leading up to the gradual adoption of the secret ballot. Intimidation works very poorly when it is difficult to predict who which candidate or party will have power. The very close division of party power in America, and the vigorous two party system in every state, make genuine voter intimidation a very bad gamble.

Not only are their many more laws to protect voters against intimidation or discrimination than when America had a flourishing democracy and a public ballot, but actual voter intimidation would also certainly backfire catastrophically into the faces of those who tried it. What are Democrats doing right now? Preemptively alleging voter intimidation!

Consider that already the vast majority of Americans voluntarily chose to register as a member of one of the two major political parties, rather than as independents. Are they not effectively and publicly declaring their political allegiance?

Consider that everyone considers that secret campaign contributions are a corrupting influence in politics, and that supporting a party or a candidate with contributions is considered essential to be public.

Consider that any good statistician can predict with about ninety-five percent probability how a particular individual will vote based upon his race, his sex, his religion, his income, his residence and one or two other factors.

Now consider the alternative to abolishing the secret ballot: elections by fraud, election results by litigation, elected officials operating under a cloud of doubt. Most people, wrongly, assume that the secret ballot is guaranteed in the Constitution. It is not even guaranteed by federal law. If the is a mess in Florida and in Ohio, those two states - both of which have Republican legislatures and Republican governors - should enact genuine election reform in January 2005: make the registration and recording of votes simple, clear, easy - and public.

Bruce Walker is a senior writer with Enter Stage Right. He is also a frequent contributor to The Pragmatist and The Common Conservative
SOURCE
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:33 pm
Looks like you didn't make the point you intended to, McG.

~~~~~

I was certainly willing to consider the point you said you were trying to make. Your links didn't support it.

<shrug>
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:36 pm
I read this one:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/mar2004/hamb-m18.shtml

Nothing about voting irregularities. Just about typical dirty politics from the people running, and financial irregularities involving some of those politicians.

I think it's ridiculous that in this day, age, and country, we should be having these kinds of election-day glitches, that are so common as to be routine. Note, I think it's bi-partisan, and a general problem, not limited to one party or the other. Just, since it's been the Democrats who have gotten the short end of the stick the most in recent years, we're the ones who have been complaining about it the most. I'm hoping that since the Republicans now feel the sting, it will become enough of a bi-partisan issue that something will be DONE about it. It's too easily resolved and the stakes are too high to just accept the sub-par process we have now.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:38 pm
And apparently even the Australian system touted as an example of how to prevent voter fraud isn't immune to it:

LOOK HERE
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:39 pm
McG may well have had worthwhile links burried in there, I don't argue that. But I shouldn't have to plough through a heap of crap to get to them. If you want to argue a point, do your homework. Otherwise it's a waste of my time. I did go through the effort, opened his first three links, and they led me nowhere. How am I supposed to take your input into discussion seriously then, McG?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:41 pm
Okay, I confess: the US-voting system is the best.
Foreign elections are just a farce compared with it.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:41 pm
Besides, even if there are voting irregularities elsewhere (nothing comparable to the level of irregularities in the U.S., but there will be some anywhere), what the heck does it matter? Does it make it OK?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:41 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
McG may well have had worthwhile links burried in there, I don't argue that. But I shouldn't have to plough through a heap of crap to get to them. If you want to argue a point, do your homework. Otherwise it's a waste of my time. I did go through the effort, opened his first three links, and they led me nowhere. How am I supposed to take your input into discussion seriously then, McG?


Do you believe that voting irregularities do not occur in other western countries?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:49 pm
what does that have to do with your links?

I KNOW (not believe) they happen. But again: that does not make them OK(and they don't happen on the same scope as here) . Which is why I care little where else they happen: as we should strive to minimize them in the first place.
the fact that my neighbor beats his wife and children does not make it fine for me to behave the same way.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 03:52 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
what does that have to do with your links?

I KNOW (not believe) they happen. But again: that does not make them OK(and they don't happen on the same scope as here) . Which is why I care little where else they happen: as we should strive to minimize them in the first place.
the fact that my neighbor beats his wife and children does not make it fine for me to behave the same way.


Then you haven't been paying attention to my point. Go back through the thread to Old europes statement that I took offense to.

I never said, nor implied, they were ok. If that's what you took from it, then that is on you.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 04:03 pm
Just want to illustrate what kinds of irregularities we're talking about.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/11/08/lines_malfunctions_and_untrained_poll_workers_plague_some_states/

Quote:
Lines, malfunctions, and untrained poll workers plague some states

By Alan Wirzbicki, Globe Correspondent | November 8, 2006

WASHINGTON -- In Virginia, deceptive phone calls threatened residents with arrest if they tried to vote. In Kansas, voting machines wouldn't work until poll workers jerry-rigged them with hand lotion. And in Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Ohio, glitches with new computerized voting systems caused long waits and may have prevented some people from voting at all.

Widespread reports of confusion and delays emerged yesterday as volunteer poll workers scrambled to implement new voting technology in about one-third of precincts nationwide. Voting rights groups said the problems, while troubling and widespread, were not as bad as in some recent elections.

At the same time, however, Democrats accused Republicans of conducting a last-minute operation aimed at preventing voters in Virginia from reaching the polls.

Officials in Virginia said the FBI has begun an investigation into the phone calls targeting Democratic areas of the state. The calls told recipients they would be arrested if they tried to vote. A recording of one such call posted on YouTube.com captured a man's voice telling the recipient that he would be "charged criminally" if he showed up to vote.

The campaign of Democrat James Webb , who is seeking to unseat Republican incumbent Senator George Allen , blamed Republicans for the calls, but a spokesman for Allen condemned the calls and said the GOP was not behind them.

Elsewhere in the country, long lines, untrained poll workers, and malfunctioning computers were reported. In Colorado, slow-moving lines stretched for blocks at a downtown voting area that had computer problems, causing some voters to leave without casting ballots. In Maryland, the state's Republican governor publicly urged voters to vote absentee instead of using the state's voting machines.

Voting rights groups said many problems stemmed from the transition to high-tech voting methods, including touch-screen voting machines that are similar to ATMs and optical-scan machines. Many poll workers received minimal training on the equipment, which states were encouraged to adopt under a 2002 law.

"These problems were anticipated. When you have this many new machines in a large number of precincts, you're going to have problems with poll workers not understanding how to administer the election," said Dan Seligson , editor of the nonpartisan website Electionline.org.

The liberal group MoveOn.org accused unspecified forces of an organized effort of voter suppression and offered a $250,000 reward to anyone who could prove it. Voting rights groups have complained that the newer voting machines are vulnerable to fraud and hacking and in many states do not leave a paper trail that could be used to double-check vote counts.

In some parts of the country, problems also arose over identification requirements. In Missouri, the secretary of state, Democrat Robin Carnahan , was asked for identification three times when she tried to vote early last week, although that law had also been overturned on the grounds it discriminated against some voters.

In South Carolina, Governor Mark Sanford , a Republican, was turned away from his voting station because he forgot his voter identification card. In Ohio, a Republican congressman, Steve Chabot , was forced to go home to retrieve proof that he lived at the address listed on voter rolls.

Civil rights groups say the problems at the polls amounted to a national disgrace.

"How much more embarrassment does America need to take before we take our electoral process seriously?" said Sharon Lettman , vice president of the People for the American Way Foundation in Washington. "We had these problems four years ago, and the system is still broken."

Material from the Associated Press was used in this report. [/quote[
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Nov, 2006 04:05 pm
well if you want to reserve this thread for your argument with old europe, go right ahead. waste of time.
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