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Death camp at Guantanamo?

 
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 10:34 am
Writers about politics and policy who are cool, articulate, stick to what's been substantiated, and provide credible sources are my favorites. This article, by Philip Gourewitch, is from the 6/16 New Yorker, and is also available online.
Quote:
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 10:36 am
Yep, and he's written opinion pieces on the energy, too. Pretty good.

But you ca't quote an opinion piece as an authoritative source. What it gives is an opinion.
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 10:41 am
In case you're wondering about the difference between an opinion piece and documented evidence - Tartarin's entry is a detailed report of what happened, what was said, by whom and where. Attributed quotes and events. Details which can be checked.

So, can you, McG, substantiate at least some of what you've said?
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 10:59 am
And PG is considered a centrist...
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 11:25 am
mamajuana wrote:
In case you're wondering about the difference between an opinion piece and documented evidence - Tartarin's entry is a detailed report of what happened, what was said, by whom and where. Attributed quotes and events. Details which can be checked.

So, can you, McG, substantiate at least some of what you've said?


Ummm, everything I have said can be substansiated. I usually go and find a source for information before I post. Philip G. is a good writer and has presented some good information, a bit hasty in his predisposition that no WMD's will be found and thus the administration is obviously guilty, but a good article.

I ask if you had read the article I posted regarding the provocations for this war? What are your thoughts on it? Does it not also state facts and make referance to sources? Or was it ignored because it might disagree with the ideas that you hold sacred?
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 11:40 am
Miss the point, McG. Your Still post is an opinion piece, not backed up. The Gourowitch piece is a report, replete with quotes, sites, events. All quotes, etc. can be back-searched.

I can't see where further dissection of this on your part would be fruitful.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 11:57 am
mamaj, That's exactly the point; he will not be able to. c.i.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
The US is in trouble already, particularly with Mexico, for executing foreign nationals without allowing their consul access. Mexico is deciding whether to stop honoring extradition agreements. What follows here is, I think, a build-up to a further isolation of the US legally, in which more countries will, having lost respect for our attitude towards international commitments, refuse to cooperate with the US. This may be candy for the xenophobes and bully-boys of the far right, but it shames America and its (former?) allies. Interestingly, this is one of the top questions being asked of prospective Dem candidates: what will you do to repair the damage the Bush administration has done to our international relationships?

6/6

Quote:
Britain has said that the US must define the status* of the Guantanamo detainees. At least 650 al-Qaede and Taliban suspects are being held at Guantanamo bay in Cuba by the US military. They have been deprived of prisoner of war status and are classified by the United States as "unlawful combatants", a term which has no international legal significance. Junior Foreign Office Minister Mike O'Brien said in parliament that it is expected international standards should be applied in the way in which individuals are detained. This criticism comes in the wake of reports that buildings within the compound are being renovated and prepared to serve as courtrooms. Further reports claim that discussions have taken place about the provision of an execution chamber. Shortly after the Sept 11th 2001 attacks President George W. Bush authorised military commission trials for terrorist suspects. Such trials have not taken place since the World War II era. http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/us030611.html


*This alone is unforgiveable.

6/11

Quote:
Human rights groups, long critical of the US prison camp at Guantanamo bay in Cuba, have found new cause for alarm in reports of a courtroom and execution chamber being prepared near the compound. Concerns over the preparations to try and punish the approximately 680 prisoners held at Guantanamo have been dismissed by officials as premature.*
US military spokesman John Smith confirmed on Monday that a building at the Guantanamo naval base is being refurbished for use as a courtroom, and that discussions concerning an execution chamber have taken place. However, according to Major Smith, "it's really premature to be talking about executions before we've even had anyone tried or jurisdiction to try anyone."
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/us030611.html


*Note that the administration consistently uses the word "premature" to describe actions is does, indeed, take -- often very shortly thereafter.

6/12

Quote:
US blocks MPs' Guantanamo mission
MANAMA: US authorities have refused permission for a Bahraini* parliamentary delegation to visit Bahraini detainees being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, it was revealed yesterday.
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Articles.asp?Article=53953&Sn=BNEW


*One could reasonably imagine that Bahrain, having participated in the shadow/dubious oil search off its coast by Arbusto over a decade ago, might get mad enough to reexamine and talk about the deal.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Do you want to contact a moderator or a content specialist for 'politics', McGentrix? The links are to be found within the first threads of this category.


Or why did you quote the Guidelines?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Anon wrote:
Yawn Rolling Eyes


Guidelines for debate in the Politics forum

All members engaging in discussion on the Politics Forum will be expected to adhere to the spirit of the following guidelines.

Overall purpose

Our wish for this forum is that all who attend come away with a richer understanding of the issues being debated, and with an increased appreciation of differing viewpoints held by others. These guidelines are in place to encourage that end above any others.

Most of us will have been involved previously in other discussion communities where some contributors' goals seemed rather different than that - perhaps to bullyingly forward a particular party line while loudly denigrating the perceived political enemy. The assumption that we are already uniquely in possession of the 'truth' is as effective a barrier to learning anything new as a person might possibly devise.

Of course, the tricky part about humility is that it applies to yourself, not to others. Therefore it seems intellectually prudent to be at least as curious and critical regarding our own assumptions as those of others.

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
--Voltaire

Mannerly conduct

As per the membership agreement, it is a given that flaming, rude comments, and personal attacks are not acceptable here. Intellectually vacuous and snide slanders such as 'DemoRats' or 'REPUGlicans' (or local variants if you live elsewhere than the US) are completely unwelcome. But, actually, we ask more of you than those obvious and fundamental rules.

Consider that you are joining a community marked by good will and a shared committment to learn and to help others learn. Thus it is expected that all discussion participants will:

- read others' posts with care and deliberation
- strive to understand the position of those who disagree with you
- value your own experience and knowledge, and allow the same for others
- write your own posts with care and deliberation
- don't hog...keep your posts to a size and frequency which allows others an equal place in the discussion
- respect the intention of the person who originally posted and keep discussion relevant to the topic or question if that is his/her expressed wish, or the wish of others engaged. Always feel free to begin a separate question yourself if a tangent seems particularly interesting or important.
- feel quite free to disagree, but engage in friendly disagreement
- remember that humor and a friendly manner can go far in encouraging your readers to 'hear' your opinion
- and, make your posts helpful to the whole community by following the rules of good scholarship below.

This appears to be a problem for you, Anon?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Taratrin, thank you for the articles. I found them informative and the second makes a really good point. I think you out the wrong link for the first one.

I especially found this quote quite thought provocking and true.

Avril McDonald wrote:
"Surely now is the time to react and to get irate, before it's too late, before they have actually put this into place . . . it's highly disturbing, and I don't think it's inappropriate to comment on the plan. When the people are frying in the chair it will be a bit too late to get upset."


That is a very good point.

One thing I would like to point out is that the military will actually give each and every prisoner a fair trial to find out if they are guilty of the charges against them or not. The defense lawyers will do their best to represent their clients.
0 Replies
 
Anon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Yawn Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Rahul wrote:
by Rahul Mahajan
Published March 11, 2003
http://www.counterpunch.org/mahajan03122003.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=3237


The majority of the antiwar movement has made a mistake in emphasizing the unilateral nature of the war on Iraq and the need for United Nations approval, and we may well reap the consequences of that mistake.

The argument has made major inroads with the public; polls consistently show that the majority of Americans oppose a unilateral war without international support and the latest poll in Britain shows only 15% of the population supports a war without a second U.N. resolution.

It's also an entirely unobjectionable argument in a negative sense - without a Security Council resolution, the war is clearly a violation of international law, as U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has recently pointed out. It is, however, possible for a war fought with U.N. approval still to be a violation of international law.



It is only objectionable from the authors (and Iraq's) point of view. I don't find it objectionable at all. There have been many UN resolutions regarding Iraq that Saddam hussein has opted to ignore. There was a security council resolution, so Rahul's assertion that there wasn't is patently false. read security Council resolution 1441, which was passed unanimously by the security Council. It gives Iraq a deadline and states consequesnces for not meeting that deadline.

Rahul wrote:
That is the fundamental question -- not whether our "allies" support us, not whether we can strong-arm and browbeat enough members of the Security Council to acquiesce, but whether or not the war is illegal.

Interestingly, in this, as in so many other things, the Bush administration turns this question on its head and claims that the war is necessary in order to uphold international law.


Again, please refer to Security council resolution 1441.

Rahul wrote:
Let's start with that argument.

Iraq is threatening no country with aggression and its violations of Security Council resolutions, while clear, are technical, mostly a matter of providing incomplete documentation about weapons that may or may not exist, and for the use of which there are no apparent plans. At the same time, Israel is in violation of, at a very conservative count, over 30 resolutions, pertaining among other things to the very substantive issue of the continuing illegal occupation of another people, along with violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention through steady encroachment on and effective annexation of that land. Indonesia, another U.S. ally, violated U.N. resolutions for a quarter of a century in East Timor with relative impunity. Morocco is illegally occupying Western Sahara. In each of these cases, the United States wouldn't be required to go to war to help uphold international law; it could start simply by terminating aid and arms sales to these countries.


So, Rahul admits that Iraq is in violation of Security Council resolutions. This is black and white, not grey as the author paints it. Either Saddam did, or he didn't violate the resolutions. Rahul is a Hussein apologist. The rest of this paragraph is just setting up a straw man to point your attention away from Iraq.

Rahul wrote:
The United States is also a very odd country to claim to uphold such a principle. Ever since a 1986 International Court of Justice ruling against the United States and in favor of Nicaragua, the United States has refused to acknowledge the ICJ's authority (the $17 billion in damages it was ordered to pay were never delivered). Shortly after that judgment, the United States actually vetoed a Security Council resolution calling on states to respect international law. Of course, the United States doesn't itself violate Security Council resolutions, since it can always veto them -- as it did when the Security Council tried to condemn its blatantly illegal invasion of Panama in 1989, and on seven occasions regarding its contra war on Nicaragua.


International Court of Justice? I could not find the ruling that Rahul is referring to, nor can I find anywhere that the US had not acknowledged the ICJ. The ICC on the other hand, the Bush administration did pull out of the lame duck signing by Clinton that put Americans at risk around the world. But, again, what does this have to do with Iraq?


Rahul wrote:
For the sake of argument, let's forget about the international double standard and focus just on Iraq. Even without reference to anything else, one can argue that repeated U.S. violations of international law when it comes to Iraq and in particular of the specific "containment" regime instituted after the Gulf War release Iraq from any obligations.

To start, Iraq has been under illegal attack for the past decade, with numerous bombings including the Desert Fox campaign, even as it was being called on to start obeying international law.

The United States also took numerous illegal or questionably legal steps to subvert the legal regime of "containment" -- passing the "Iraq Liberation Act" in October 1998, which provided $97 million for groups trying to overthrow the Iraqi government, a clear violation of Iraqi sovereignty and a violation of international law; stating that only with regime change would the sanctions be lifted, in violation of UNSCR 687; and using weapons inspections to commit espionage, the information from which was then used in targeting decisions during Desert Fox; and the creation of the "no-fly zones," another violation of Iraq's sovereignty not authorized by any U.N. resolution.


I believe that the "containment" regime Rahul is discussing was put in place by the UN and was being upheld by UN peacekeeping forces. Granted that was the US and the UK, but only because they have the technology, manpower, and ability to enforce the UN containment zone. these containment zones were created to keep Hussein from slaughtering the citizens of Iraq, not to impede on the soveriegnty of Iraq.Read UN security Resolution here who actually broke this resolution. These baseless accusations do not hold up to scrutiny.


Rahul wrote:
Is the War Itself a Violation of International Law?

Perhaps the most cogent argument, however, is the fact that the war the United States is planning on Iraq is an act of premeditated aggression.

All the signs point in the same direction.

First, in August, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld ordered that the list of bombing targets be extended far beyond any goal of enforcing the no-fly zones to include command-and-control centers and in general to go beyond simple reaction to threats. According to John Pike of Globalsecurity.org, this was "part of their strategy of going ahead and softening up the air defenses now" to prepare for war later. By December 2002, the shift could be noted in a 300% increase in ordnance dropped per threat detected -- a clear sign that simply defending the overflights was no longer the primary aim of the bombings. According to the Guardian, "Whitehall officials have admitted privately that the 'no-fly' patrols, conducted by RAF and US aircraft from bases in Kuwait, are designed to weaken Iraq's air defence systems and have nothing to do with their stated original purpose." Weakening air defense and command-and-control are the standard first steps in all U.S. wars since 1991, so the first salvoes in the war were being fired even as inspections continued. In the first two months of this year, bombings occurred almost every other day.


Yes, there was a huge prelude, months of troop movements, the positioning of Navy vessals, diplomatic meetings with surrounding countries, you would think Saddam would have started taking these threats seriously and finally give the UN weapon inspectors the latitude they requested to avoid war. But, he didn't. The Guardian is not a good source to use to back up a serious news story. It's like me using NewsMax or freeRepublic to back up what I say.

Rahul wrote:
Even worse, according to strategic analyst Michael Klare, by February 2002 it had become clear that all of the administration's supposed diplomatic activities in the Fall of 2002 and early 2003 had merely been a smokescreen.

The war was being seriously planned from at least the spring of 2002, but in the summer there was a serious internal debate in the military between a so-called "Afghan option" with 50-75,000 troops and heavy reliance on air power and Iraqi opposition forces and the eventual plan, "Desert Storm lite," with 200-250,000 troops and a full-scale invasion.

The decision was made in late August, but the more involved plan, according to Klare, required at least a six-month deployment. Ever since then, the timetable has not been one of diplomacy, U.N. resolutions, and weapons inspections, but rather one of deployment, strong-arming of regional allies needed as staging areas for the invasion, and, quite likely, replenishment of stocks of precision weapons depleted in the war on Afghanistan.


Is Rahul saying that the war shouldn't have been planned? That would be rather irresponsible on the part of the US and it's allies. Of course it was planned. Bush tolad saddam what he intended, and when. It was never a secret that we were not planning an attack, Saddam continued to insist he was innocent, yet still innocent civilians in Iraq were being tortured and put to death by Saddam and his sons.


Rahul wrote:
For over a month, as inspections increase in effectiveness and scope, as Iraq dismantles its al-Samoud missiles, and as it struggles desperately to find ways to reconcile questions over biological and chemical agents, the White House has contemptuously dismissed all efforts. The constant refrain is that time is running out, with no explanation of why the time is so limited. The reason is simple; it's not because of any imminent threat from Iraq, it's just because the troops are there and ready to go.


Saddam had 12 years to reconcile those questions. Last minute efforts were worthless based on the record of lies and deceit Saddam has shown.


Rahul wrote:
The obvious conclusion is that the war was decided on long ago, irrespective of Iraq's actions. Nothing Iraq could have done short of full-scale capitulation and "regime change" would have stopped the United States from going to war. That makes this war a clear case of aggression.


This is not the obvious conclusion. The obvious conclusion is that Saddam hussein flaunted endless UN Security resolutions and international law. He was a threat to his neighbors and our allies as well a madman. Had Saddam lived up to the obligations put forth to him under resolution 1441, the US would not have found it neccessary to force the regime change and there would not have been a war. Saddam chose the path that Iraq followed.


Rahul wrote:
Even the fig leaf of another U.N. Security Council resolution will not change this fact. Nor will it confer any legitimacy on the actions, because of the massive attempts by the United States, documented in the study "Coalition of the Willing or Coalition of the Coerced?" by the Institute for Policy Studies, to coerce, bribe, and otherwise exert undue influence on other countries, including key undecided Security Council members, to support the U.S. position.

Above all else, if other countries acquiesce to U.S. plans, it will be because of the constant refrain of the Bush administration -- that the United States will go to war with or without their consent, so there is nothing to be gained (and much to be lost) by resisting.

In fact, the U.S. war on Iraq is itself the most fundamental violation of international law. In the language coined at the Nuremberg trials, it is a crime against peace. Former Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, chief U.S. prosecutor at the first Nuremberg trial, called waging aggressive war "the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

It surely is unprecedented in world history that a country is under escalating attack; told repeatedly that it will be subjected to a full-scale war; required to disarm itself before that war; and then castigated by the "international community" for significant though partial compliance.


Rahul states repeatedly that the US is in violation of International law, but never states what law. You would think that a report of this caliber would have page and paragraph stateing examples of how the US broke those laws and how the UN should be enforcing those laws. But, he doesn't because he can't. The US broke no laws, he doesn't like that the US has been pushed far enough and now it is time to push back.

Next?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
mamajuana wrote:
CI - give it up. It's kind of a brick wall here. Passeth all understanding.


I know I've said this before, but I keep remembering the behavior of some Americans overseas (not exclusively, but mostly, Americans) in, say, a restaurant. These were people who not only didn't know any of the native language, they DIDN'T GODDAMN WELL WANT TO KNOW any of that gibberish. In order to get communicate what they wanted, in a restaurant for example, they would start in English in a normal voice, then amplify the voice to an angry shout and then, when not getting what they wanted, accuse the waiter (in English) of being just another DUMBASS FOREIGNER.

So you are right, Mamaj. We really ought to pledge that we will, as it were, smile mutely at these idjits and then drift away, never filling their order, never attempting further communication.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
McG wroye"

You ask me "why not provide us with information (real information) on the provocation of the events in Afghanistan and Iraq?" yet you continue to ignore the ideas that I provide showing that maybe the war with Iraq WAS provoked. I state facts about the prisoners in Gauntanamo and why they are there, you hassle me with unneccessary innuendos about the administration and its world dealings.


Ideas that you provide showing that maybe the war with Iraq was provoked...........precisely. A maybe is not a fact. Have you got that yet?
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
CI - give it up. It's kind of a brick wall here. Passeth all understanding.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
"a rose by any other name..."

You see a report, I see an op-ed peice for the New Yorker.

That still doesn't give any more or less credence to the peice from Still which you have continued to ignore. I have acknowledged the report from Gouervitch and stated my opinion on it. You ask me "why not provide us with information (real information) on the provocation of the events in Afghanistan and Iraq?" yet you continue to ignore the ideas that I provide showing that maybe the war with Iraq WAS provoked. I state facts about the prisoners in Gauntanamo and why they are there, you hassle me with unneccessary innuendos about the administration and its world dealings.

I try to answer your questions and I never get any answers in return, instead I get stonewalled and insulted. It is a useless routine of circular logic and ad hominem attacks.

It is no wonder that Liberals have a bad name, look who's representing them.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
McGent, "Liberals?" I'm a liberal like Tom DeLay. ** Bad example, but it explains it. c.i.
0 Replies
 
Anon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Mama:

All mouth, No brains!

Anon
0 Replies
 
Anon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2003 06:00 pm
Tart:

Anything center, or left of center is unacceptable in this land of "patriots" that think conquering for oil and oil pipelines is A-OK!! Killing civilians is OK as long as you get control of that oil! For the ";patriots", the end justifys the means!

Frankly, we can do without these "patriots" who are ruining this country and conquering the world because they feel "entitled" to it by virtue of being Americans.

Anon
0 Replies
 
 

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