What causes racial hatred: racists or racial friction?

au1929 wrote:

Walter

Stessd

Quote:
Your response even sounds as worse as any Nazi pamphlet.

Maybe he sounds that way because of the Jews experience with the Nazi's. Just think would there have been an Israel if there had not been the Nazi regime, I doubt it. Another legacy of Nazi Germany.

I doubt he sounds that way because of Nazis I think he sounds that way because of Arab terrorism. And I can only appeal to his logic to see that all Arabs are not terrorists, despite the prevalence of their hostile ones.

Steissd has equated all Arabs and all Muslims to terrorists several times.

It bothers me because he is usually quite rational and usually avoids logical fallacy.

I have always praised him for his unfailing civility but don't see why he has to paint Arabs as primitive monsters at every opportunity.

That he does it in an understated way makes it more dangerous.

The vile hate spewing ones are never heard. It's the ones who do it calmly that become dangerous.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

One, do you think Israel could have been born if the holocaust had not happened?

Two, if "no", do you consider it a fair trade-off?

That's a very unfair question.

First you name the price for the lives that died in the holocaust. Then I will find you a piece of land that is equal in value.

You are asking them to define the price of the lives of their relatives.

That is cruel and unfair as well as impossible to quantify.

Both those lives and their self determination and homeland is priceless and not a toy for your entertainment.

Come on!

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JosephMorgan wrote:

Craven: And the source of said "friction" is?

Hint: ignorance and intolerance [the friction caused between sexual preferences]

As multi-culturalists we are noted for tolerating, but this word tells us that we are reacting against something that elicits from us a need to tolerate. We are reacting against friction. Intellectually then we attempt to accommodate the source of the friction.

People, as we know, react negatively to those who they perceive are different from them. This covers politics, sexual preference, race, religion, etc.. They are reacting against friction.

We can try to tolerate the friction; we can try to intellectually accommodate the diversity, but the friction that causes the need to tolerate and to intellectually come to an accommodation still exists.

Joe,

We have to "tolerate" whenever we co-exist.

Heck between the same race a lot of "tolerance" is needed to avoid bloodshed.

Heck I have to "tolerate" my boss.

You still make precious little sense.

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Thanks, Craven, You expressed it exactly right. c.ii.

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Frank
Would you like to rethink your last question. Is Israel a satisfactory trade off for the lives of 6 million Jews and the suffering of many more. Do you really expect or need an answer?

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au

Just a couple of days ago, I read similar as steissd wrote -but about Jews- again in an exhibition at the concentration camp here.

I'm doing all I can that such things never happen! And using this language, is always the starting point.

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2 points:

Didn't Steissed mention that he wasn't Jewish in one of the topics?

Next, there always were Jews living in Palestine/Syria/Jordan, well before the founding of Israel in 1948. By the 1880s Jews were migrating to there from Europe and Russia to escape persecution, before the turn of the century there were estimated to be about 40, 000 trying to make a living from agriculture.

Now this is when the rulers of the land were the Ottoman Turks (muslims) who seemed to have no problems themselves with this population. By 1908, the idea of a Jewish 'homeland' had been pursued, but it wasn't until the breakup of the Ottoman Empire by the British that the idea of Jewish nation in TransJordan (as it was then) gained impetus. This period also saw the formation of the Arabic states of Iran-Iraq with no reference at all to the condition or culture of the actual residents of those lands.

I can not say that the horrific slaughter of Europe's Jewry was the most important factor in the creation of the present state of Israel. There could have just as easily been a sort of 'state within a state', a permanent Jewish presence in the region without a seperate nation being founded. I don't think that the creation of Israel is some sort of historical imperative arising from the events in Germany.

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Mr Stillwater wrote:

I don't think that the creation of Israel is some sort of historical imperative arising from the events in Germany.

I'm sure, most histotians could agree with this.

After the founding of the Zionist movement by Theodore Herzl at the end of the 19th century practical steps were taken toward securing international sanction for large-scale Jewish settlement in Palestine. The Balfour declaration in 1917 asserted the British Government's support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Then, immigration stated - surely becoming greater due to the polical situation in Germany.
But, as you already said, Mr. Stillwater, this wasn't an historic imperativ at all for the creation of the state.

(And "yes", steissd mentioned several times his Christian background.)

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JosephMorgan wrote:

Guatam: I am an Indian, and I live in London.

Then you know hyper hatred in India. The conditions of the untouchables is an outrage, the extremes in income, the constant strife.

India is a good case of too much hate, I think.

By saying promote mono-racial societies, I meant if you wanted the ultimate amount of possible harmony. I think most people on this board would sacrifice a little harmony for a certain amount of multi-culturalism.

But India is a role model for racial hatred and multi-culturalism gone to far.

I don't think you know much abt India to make such statements. Anyways, you have amply demonstrated that there is no room for argument - you have demonstrated "this is my theory and I am sticking to it". So all I can do is wish you good luck !!

And then I thank god that there are not very many people arnd who think like you...

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Mr Stillwater
Steissd as I remember it was born of a Jewish mother and a Christian father which in the eyes of Judaism makes him a Jew and allows for his right of return. He did however, adopt Christianity but never officially converted.

As to the state of Israel. There was agitation towards the creation of a Jewish State in the late 19 Th. century as well as the white paper in the early 20th. However, were it not for the holocaust I doubt that it would have ever come to fruition. If for no reason other than the majority of Jews around the world would not have left the lands they had settled in to go and live there.
In addition I do not believe the nations of the world would have been so amenable to the creation of a Jewish State were it not for the guilt or sympathy they felt as a result of the holocaust.

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Craven: We have to "tolerate" whenever we co-exist.

And the degree of tolerance, the effort we put out to endure something, depends on the amount of friction present. A room full of Tibetans, who are all of the same Buddhist sect, have the same political leanings, and are all straight -- will have less friction than a room that has an assortment of Jews, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, socialists, conservatives, drag queens and Sunday School teachers.

Right?

When we say people are intolerant concerning the sources of friction in society we are saying that they are not trying to endure what repulses them. Blacks who self-segregate themselves are acting in accord to the friction that occurs between blacks and whites.

Race riots in California high schools between blacks and Hispanics are not uncommon. We preach, implore, teach tolerance on a daily basis to these students. They endure the racial friction, practicing tolerance, endurance, but for periods of time that tolerance breaks down and racial hatred comes through.

When we come to understand the cause of hate, we can make more intelligent decisions concerning how to handle problems in a multi-racial society. I would suggest we are failing miserably in handling these problems, because the need to shout, "Stop the hate," seems to grow every year.

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After all this rhetoric the question you are asking is similar to the age old question of "what came first the chicken or the egg.
We will in all likelihood never learn to love our neighbors if they are different from us however we may hopefully someday learn to live with and be tolerant of them.

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I do not want to re-think my question -- the question is fine just the way it is asked.

It was not meant as an insult to anyone -- and frankly, taking it as an insult makes no sense.

The brutal fact of the matter is that Jews all over the world are willing to die in order to keep Israel in existence.

The brutal fact of the matter is that it may have been impossible for Jews to gain the Israeli homeland without the holocaust having happened.

Keep in mind that most countries were not even willing to help German Jews out of their horrible dilemma by allowing them to emigrate to their territories -- so the chance of these countries getting together (in the absence of the holocaust) and allowing, indeed facilitating the creation of Israel, seems highly improbable.

The question is legitimate -- and follows reasonably from the irony that the holocaust is the price that was paid for the creation of Israel.

I repeat, the question was not intended to be offensive -- but if you take it that way, just ignore it.

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Frank

Quote:

The brutal fact of the matter is that Jews all over the world are willing to die in order to keep Israel in existence.

Yes, and why do you think that is? The Holocaust! Jews realize without a homeland they are always a stranger in a strange land.
In addition your question seemed to ask whether Israel was a fair trade for the killing of 6 million Jews. Was it insulting? As far as I can see only to the questioner to have asked such a foolish question.

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Well, au, there are some people who make a career out of being insulted -- and you seem to be one of them.

If I had asked if Israel owed Hitler a debt of gratitude since without his assistance there would be no Israel -- that might have been an insulting way to ask a very logical question. But the way I asked mine was not.

I don't expect you will agree. But then again, I have trouble understanding people who make a career out of being insulted.

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frank
You had better reread what I said. I was not insulted. It was you who should be insulted for asking what I believe to be a foolish question.

Quote:

The brutal fact of the matter is that it may have been impossible for Jews to gain the Israeli homeland without the holocaust having happened.

Keep in mind that most countries were not even willing to help German Jews out of their horrible dilemma by allowing them to emigrate to their territories -- so the chance of these countries getting together (in the absence of the holocaust) and allowing, indeed facilitating the creation of Israel, seems highly improbable.

There is no argument there that is basically what I said originally. Go back and look.

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Au, I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

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Frank
Let it rest there.

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Frank,

I am not Jewish and also not insulted by your question.

But I have two questions in return.

A) If a poor child's parents die a horrific death and due to the media attention a trust fund is set up for the child that allows the child to go to university which the child's parents would not have been able to afford, would you ask the child is the trust fund was worth the parent's lives?

B) How much do you think 6 million lives are worth? If you come up with that, I'll do the legwork on trying to determine the value of Isreal's real estate.

My point is that it is just not a question that can be answered by anyone except those who who made the sacrifice.

If you asked me, I'd say sure it's worth it.

But I didn't suffer from the 6 million, so I'm obviously not in a position to say taht. Those who did, would, IMO, view the question as unfair.

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JosephMorgan wrote:

And the degree of tolerance, the effort we put out to endure something, depends on the amount of friction present. A room full of Tibetans, who are all of the same Buddhist sect, have the same political leanings, and are all straight -- will have less friction than a room that has an assortment of Jews, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, socialists, conservatives, drag queens and Sunday School teachers.

Right?

Not necessarily. In fact I post that a room of such diversity would only be brought together by something that precludes the "friction" you speak of.

In any case your examples are getting stupider.

A room full of babies will have more "friction" than a room full of adults.

Therefore babies cause friction. :-)

Joe,

Stick to acting like a prophet and being obdurate because the examples just make the theory look daft.

JosephMorgan wrote:

When we say people are intolerant concerning the sources of friction in society we are saying that they are not trying to endure what repulses them. Blacks who self-segregate themselves are acting in accord to the friction that occurs between blacks and whites.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they are ignorant and seek to be repulsed by what is different. I am repulsed by stupidity. It's a particularly harsh question to ask of you but is stupidity the cause of friction? And if so what conclusions would taht lead you to draw?

JosephMorgan wrote:

Race riots in California high schools between blacks and Hispanics are not uncommon. We preach, implore, teach tolerance on a daily basis to these students. They endure the racial friction, practicing tolerance, endurance, but for periods of time that tolerance breaks down and racial hatred comes through.

I know. I have documented one. But having gone to school in California I can tell you right now that the friction isn't so much about race as it is the mere point of having friction.

The problem is a violent gang culture more so than race. If your theory was true we would not see gangs of the same race killing each other.

Gang violence in partly due to the divorce rate, the percentage of juvenile delinquents who come from broken homes is high.

Gangs offer a sense of belonging and are particularly attractive to delinquents who come from broken homes.

So by the infamous "Joe Logic" should marriage be ended to stop the violence?

After all, marriage causes divorce right?

JosephMorgan wrote:

When we come to understand the cause of hate, we can make more intelligent decisions concerning how to handle problems in a multi-racial society. I would suggest we are failing miserably in handling these problems, because the need to shout, "Stop the hate," seems to grow every year.

No, the urge to shout "stop the stupidity" grows by the post.

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What causes racial hatred: racists or racial friction?

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