REPENT!!! THE END IS HERE????

The futurist or dispensationalist view that you hold is a recent (as in 1800 onwards) viewpoint introduced by John Nelson Darby. It is not the original viewpoint concerning the Book of Revelation and to me, smells suspiciously of apologetic revisionism.

I'd like to point out Epi, that you are correct in trying not to use the same spelling of paedohphilia as me (as I use British English and you use American English). However, the US spelling of paedophilia is actually pedophilia.

Back on topic, however, the concept of the Revelation predicting the End Times isn't very solid or even a majority viewpoint. To sum up my lengthy post that came before this, a response to Foxfyre's question, a large majority of people don't believe this conflict in the Middle East is a sign of the End Times, because they don't believe that Revelation predicts the Apocalypse in the first place.

I hope the 'you' referenced here is a generic 'you' as I have not expressed a personal view of the end times at all, dispensationalist, futurist, or any other.

While it is true that Darby is considered the 'father of dispensationalism', and it is also true that there was no acknowledgment or discussion of a doctrine of 'the rapture' until the early 19th century, I do question that it was Darby who invented it.

Nothing I've studied suggests that this was part of the liturgy or discussions of the early Church or throughout the Middle Ages and Reformation. That, however, does not mean the doctrine is not true, but, if it is, it only means that it was discerned more recently.

Also what do you think Revelation predicts, if anything?

Foxfyre wrote:

I hope the 'you' referenced here is a generic 'you' as I have not expressed a personal view of the end times at all, dispensationalist, futurist, or any other.

No such luck. I thought from the way you went on about the Rapture, that you believed in the dispensationalist or futurist view, or at least something that closely resembled it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I apologise.

While it is true that Darby is considered the 'father of dispensationalism', and it is also true that there was no acknowledgment or discussion of a doctrine of 'the rapture' until the early 19th century, I do question that it was Darby who invented it.

Fair enough. I don't blame him. I just stated that he was the Father that introduced the concept to a mass audience, for no other reason except that this site is able2know and I thought it would be nice if people learnt some nice facts whilst they keep apace of our discussion. I'm sorry if I made it sound as if he invented it, though I can't for the life of me see where you could have got that idea from. Oh well...

Nothing I've studied suggests that this was part of the liturgy or discussions of the early Church or throughout the Middle Ages and Reformation. That, however, does not mean the doctrine is not true, but, if it is, it only means that it was discerned more recently.

However, you'd think that if it was the true meaning of the Revelation, the early Church would have acknowledged it as such. After all, they were the ones to pick the books that were to be included in the Bible.

Of course, the Book of Revelation's authorship date has been pegged to around the rule of Nero or Emperor Domitian. Let us not forget that the Christians were especially oppressed by Nero and much apocalyptic literature was floating around amongst them in that time, much of it referring to the destruction of Rome.

In fact, some scholars believe that this literature helped to trigger the Burning of Rome and that the Christians really were responsible (or at least, extremist terrorist Christians, anyway). That, however, is another argument altogether.

Also what do you think Revelation predicts, if anything?

See the above comments I made? I have reason to believe that the Book of Revelation is just one of many apocalyptic propaganda texts calling for the destruction of Rome, so it in effect, predicted nothing.

There is nothing, however, to stop people from trying to emulate what is described in the Book of Revelation (which is coincidentally my favourite section of the Bible, because of its surreal nature). Not literally, of course, but in a loose "metaphorical" way.

That, of course, does not mean that Revelation predicted anything. It's not a prediction if people try to make it true later on... like some of those people who insist on sending as many Jews to Israel as possible.

Quote:

Fair enough. I don't blame him. I just stated that he was the Father that introduced the concept to a mass audience, for no other reason except that this site is able2know and I thought it would be nice if people learnt some nice facts whilst they keep apace of our discussion. I'm sorry if I made it sound as if he invented it, though I can't for the life of me see where you could have got that idea from. Oh well...

And here I translated your word 'introduced' to mean 'invented'. I was obviously in error there, and I apologize.

Of course the word 'rapture' as pertains to the end times appears nowhere in the Old or New Testaments and I don't believe it is even alluded to in Revelation. There are passages in Revelation alluding to the Saints being sheltered in heaven and protected against the tribulations on Earth, but it takes a real leap of faith to absolutely attach these passages to scripture elsewhere in the Bible.

Most modern theologians place the writings attibuted to John as the most recent of the New Testament writings, and were probably dated around the turn of the century. This would put Revelation several decades after Nero and most likely also after Domitian's death; certainly after Domitian had essentially ended his persecution of Christians.

Agreed that Revelation and most of the 'end times' passages of Scripture, both Old and New Testament, were written in a kind of apocalyptic code. All predict God's dealing with wickedness and evilness on Earth and hold out hope for redemption for the faithful. The writings attributed to John certainly offered great optimism and words of encouragement during a time when it was both perilous and difficult to be a Christian.

But propaganda? I think it takes a huge leap of faith to say that.

His followers do attribute prophetic powers to Joseph Smith. I'll give you that one. The others you mention never claimed prophetic powers, however, and to the best of my knowledge, no prophetic powers have been assigned to them. Take care not to confuse interpretations of prophecy with prophecy itself.

One of the most common questions I get asked is, "What does a certain person believe concerning Bible prophecy?" I've received so many inquires from people that want information on well-known figures in the field of Bible prophecy, I'd I've decided to create this web page. There are some good commentators out there, but there are also a lot of bad ones lurking around. Hopefully, this page will help you decide which ones are worth your attention.

Positive Reviews:
John Ankerberg -- An apologist of biblical issues
Dave Breese -- Was one of prophecy's most gifted speakers
JR Church -- Serving the Lord for many years now
Jimmy DeYoung -- An expert on the Middle East
Russ Doughten -- Father of the Modern Christian Movie
Daymond Duck -- A best-selling author of many books
Arno Froese -- Editor of Midnight Call magazine
Phillip Goodman -- Teaches the basics of prophecy
John Hagee -- founder and Pastor of Cornerstone Church
Ed Hindson -- A busy man who wears many hat
Dave Hunt -- Someone who fearlessly speaks the truth
Thomas Ice -- Defender of the pre-trib view
Terry James -- A great speaker and a dear friend
Grant Jeffrey -- Always has an answer to every question
David Jeremiah -- A highly sought-after conference speaker
Gary Kah -- The only conspiracy speaker that makes sense
Tim LaHaye -- One of the greats of Christian fiction
Zola Levitt -- Teaches people from a Jewish perspective
David Allen Lewis -- Prophecy, prayer, and spiritual warfare
Hal Lindsey -- A giant in the world of Bible prophecy
Jan Markell -- Founder of Olive Tree Ministries
Chuck Missler -- A man gifted in business and now in prophecy
David Noeble -- An authority on the decline of morality
Charles Pack -- A rich history of serving the Lord
Donald Perkins -- A man with the best prophetic charts
Randall Price -- An expert in the field of biblical archaeology
David Reagan -- A dependable source of reliable information
Larry Spargimino -- A man of talent who stays busy
Perry Stone -- A prophecy expert that does claim to be one
John Walvoord -- Former head of Dallas Theological Seminary

The Bad Apples:
Irvin Baxter -- Very unique view of prophecy
Peter Lalonde -- Mr. Hollywood
Texe Marrs -- Conspiracy magnet
Stan Johnson -- Erroneous doctrine magnet
Hilton Sutton -- Lacking humility
Jimmy Swaggart -- Trouble with the ladies
Jack Van Impe -- Smart man; dumb decisions
Ron Wyatt -- Archaeological fraud

The Prophetically Confused:
Kenneth Gentry - Preterism
Robert Van Kampen - Pre-wrath
Dave MacPherson - Pre-trib rapture basher
Robert Gundry - Dispensational post-trib

Dear Friend;

This message has been sent to you by a friend or a relative who has recently disappeared along with millions and millions of people around the world.

The reason they chose to send you this letter is because they cared about you and would like you to know the truth about where they went.

This may come as a shock to you, but the one who sent you this has been taken up to heaven.

If you read a Bible, you will see that after chapter three in the book of Revelation, the church is no longer mentioned as being on earth. (The church are the believers in Jesus Christ, not the buildings in which people meet.)

In the Bible, 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 verses 16 and 17 tell how Jesus came to take away His church. But, you have to believe the Bible is the Word of God in order to believe this.

I am sure that there will be a lot of speculation as to what happened to all these people. The theories of some scientists and world leaders will have so much credibility that most of the world will believe them.

It will sound like the truth!

But, there is only one truth. And, that truth is that Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, came back to earth and took with Him to Heaven all who believed in Him and made Him their Lord.

If you would like to give your life to Jesus Christ and be born again, it is not too late. First you must pray to God saying"Father I admit I am a sinner, and I will turn from my sin and do good. I believe that Jesus was your son and that He came here to die for me so that my sins would be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me and I will repent of my sins. In Jesus name I pray."

If you just prayed that prayer and meant it with all your heart, then God
will know you as one of His own. You should now seek out others who have also given their lives to Christ, read a Bible daily, and do your best to bring others to Christ.

God bless you.

The New Testament was never formally canonzied but has become what it is through common use over the decades and centuries.

Since I wasn't there, I am in no position to say, but based on the date(s) of the writings and the burning of Rome, I am inclined to believe that the Emperor was a nut of the highest degree and he needed to divert criticism from himself. The Church was a handy scapegoat for him. I don't think it had anything to do with the texts themselves. It is highly unlikely that the Emperor even had access to (or any interest in) the manuscripts that eventually became New Testament scriptures at the time Rome burned. (First Century AD) Even all the Christian didn't have access to all the manuscriptes at that time.

That, however, does not necessarily take them out of the realm of real prophency and/or an image of the what is in store for humankind.

WHAT IN GOD'S NAME?
"God will destroy this earth that is so marred and cursed by satan's evil."
Tim LaHaye

Since 1995, Tim LaHaye's "Left Behind" series has sold over 65 million copies, making it one of the best-selling adult fiction series in history. While the novels are sold as fiction, according to LaHaye and an increasing number of Americans, the story they tell is nothing less than biblical prophecy born from the Book of Revelation. As LaHaye's theology has gained popularity over the last several decades, so has his access to powerful politicians including President Bush.

The true danger of LaHaye's thinking, known as Premillennial Dispensationalism- exposed powerfully in a series of speeches and articles by Bill Moyers - is in the justification it provides to its followers for damaging policies from environmental degradation to the war in Iraq.

It may sound far-fetched that so outlandish an ideology could be exercising real power over our country and our future. The reality is anything but far-fetched - not when proponents of Dispensationalism hold sway over some of the nation's most powerful politicians, and not when tens-of-millions of Americans consider themselves adherents to its claims.

Let DefCon give you a little background:
The Rapture: "One of the comments that we've heard that has really blessed us is people have been driven back to the Book of Revelation to prove us wrong only to find that what we said was there." Tim LaHaye.

Premillennial Dispensationalism was fathered by John Darby in 19th century Britain. Based on a literal interpretation of the books of Revelation and Daniel, Premillennial Dispensationalism states that time is divided into seven dispensations, the last of which will be the Millennial Kingdom: a thousand-year period where Christ will reign over a renewed world. According to Darby and LaHaye, the precursor to this "Glorious Appearing" will be a terrible seven-year period of tribulations. During this time, those on Earth, and the planet itself, will suffer death and destruction. There is hope for the faithful, however. LaHaye maintains that prior to the death and destruction, Jesus will collect all true believers, "Rapturing" them up to Heaven, where they will escape the terrible fate of the sinful Earth.

Dispensationalists welcome this period of death and destruction because it is inextricably connected to the Rapture. They look for signs of its coming, and many take steps to hasten what they believe to be biblical prophecy.

Growing Popularity: Today, preachers and congregations across America have adopted this ideology. Beyond this fact, and the wild success of the "Left Behind" series, there are many signs of its growing support.
A 2004 Newsweek poll found that 55% of Americans believe "that the faithful will be taken up to heaven in the Rapture."

More than a third of Americans (36%) believe the Book of Revelation to be "true prophesy that predicts the end of the world as it will happen."

Websites like www.RaptureReady.com provide daily updates on the status of the "Rapture Index," while www.RaptureLetters.com allows believers to "send an Electronic Message (e-mail) to whomever you want after the Rapture has taken place, and you and I have been taken to heaven."

And, leading religious right leaders publicly discuss the Rapture's imminence, preaching to an estimated 20 to 25 million evangelicals who share this, or a similar version, of end-times theology.

Access to Power: "I'll tell you what is wrong with America. We don't have enough of God's ministers running the country." Tim LaHaye, 1984.

Beyond the influence Dispensationalism has through its electoral power - some estimate that followers of this ideology compose up to 15% of the electorate - the leading purveyors of this ideology are also very well connected. In 1981 Tim LaHaye founded the Council for National Policy, becoming the organization's first president. Attendees of the Council for National Policy's secretive tri-annual meetings - whose members include leaders of the religious right and top tier conservative organizers - have included President Bush, Sen. Bill Frist, John Ashcroft, Tommy Thompson, and Oliver North. Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were featured speakers at one of the group's meetings only two months after the invasion of Iraq.

A 2004 New York Times article about the Council for National Policy called it "a little-known club of a few hundred of the most powerful conservatives in the country," adding that for 23 years they "have met behind closed doors at undisclosed locations for a confidential conference…to strategize about how to turn the country to the right."

As Salon.com's Michelle Goldberg wrote, "The point isn't that all these leaders are part of some kind of right-wing Illuminati. It's simply that the seemingly wacky ideology promulgated in the Left Behind books is one that important people in America are quite comfortable with."
Justifying Policy: "God will destroy this earth that is so marred and cursed by Satan's evil." Tim LaHaye, 1973.

Dispensationalists' literal interpretation of the Bible means they look for, and often seek to create, the realization of biblical prophecy. Among the most direct results of this are support for abandoning environmental protections and for the war in Iraq.

As then Secretary of the Interior James Watt stated in 1981, "That is the delicate balance the Secretary of the Interior must have: to be steward for the natural resources for this generation as well as future generations. I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns." (Secretary Watt, testifying before the House Interior Committee, February 1981.)

Dispensationalists' lack of support for environmental protection has two causes. First, the Earth will soon be destroyed, so who cares what we do to it? Secondly, Christ's second coming, and thus the Rapture, requires a scourged Earth. Therefore defiling the planet will only accelerate His return. This explains a large reoccurrence of this theology during the Cold War, when the threat of nuclear annihilation was omnipresent. See Jerry Falwell's "Nuclear War and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ" for an explanation of that phenomenon.

"At church one day (DeLay) listened as the pastor (John Hagee), urging his flock to support the administration, declared that 'the war between America and Iraq is the gateway to the Apocalypse.' DeLay rose to speak, not only to the congregation but to 225 Christian TV and radio stations. 'Ladies and gentlemen' he said, 'what has been spoken here tonight is the truth of God.'"

LaHaye, John Hagee, and other Dispensationalists contend that the war in Iraq is biblical prophecy, supported by a literal reading of several of the Bible's verses referring to that region of the world. These individuals therefore support the war not for political or social reasons, but rather because it is a biblical requirement for the second coming of Christ, and thus the Rapture. This reality is argued openly by followers, including LaHaye.

The real threat posed by this growing movement is that it remains below the radar screen for most of mainstream America, which is unaware or fails to recognize its gravity. Instead of ridiculing its believers, those who are concerned by its implication and growing power need to begin to understand this theology and to develop strategies for countering its increasing influence.

Speeches and Articles By Bill Moyers:
"Welcome To Doomsday, Never!"
"There is No Tomorrow"
"9/11 and the Sport of God"

More Resources:
"The Godly Must be Crazy"
"Who Is The Council For National Policy And What Are They Up To? And Why Don't They Want You To Know?"
"Club of the most powerful gathers in strictest of privacy" The New York Times, 08/28/04
"Writing for Godot:The Bible Foretold It. The War in Iraq Proves It. The End Is Near, Says Christian Activist and Best-Selling Novelist Tim LaHaye, and He's Writing as Fast as He Can" The Los Angeles Times, 04/25/04
"The Evangelical-Jewish Alliance"The Christian Century, 06/28/03
Theocracy Watch Feature on Dispensationalism

The author was not writing about Christians in general, just the very conservative ones. You should know that there are many different kinds of Christians. The more conservative they are the more dangerous they become. That plainly can be seen in the Muslim religion.

xingu wrote:

The author was not writing about Christians in general, just the very conservative ones. You should know that there are many different kinds of Christians. The more conservative they are the more dangerous they become. That plainly can be seen in the Muslim religion.

Perhaps you should have made that clear at the beginning.

Perhaps you should have made that clear at the beginning.

Well it certainly escapes me how Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise, are such a subversive group, and it certainly sounds more dangerous to me to call them 'dangerous' than does any 'danger' they could possibly present.

Example: after finally convincing a battered wife to leave the husband who was beating the crap out of her and the kids every time he got drunk, her pastor talked her out of leaving on the grounds that 'a wife must submit to her husband'. He and I definitely had words, and he was convinced that it was more evil for her to stay than to leave.

But other than these narrowly defined instances where a person is clearly being damaged, I am far more afraid of those who fear anybody with a different opinion or point of view than I am afraid of those who hold them, however much I might disagree with them.

It is not evil just being wrong. And it certainly isn't evil being right no matter how politically incorrect you might be.

Many on the Left seem to disagree with that, however.

Should we trash all Christian points of view because they're on Christian websites?