Diesels ---- the cars of the immediate future

I registered just to get in on this
There is so much speculation, misinformation, and BS in this thread that I couldn't stay out of it.

Glow Plugs exist or are absent regardless of engine size, how the fuel is injected, or any other factor. They exist because a manufacturer's combination (including compression ratio, climate, chamber design, piston design, rod/stroke ratio, and several other factors) gave them less-than-satisfactory cold start performance. Its not a requirement, its a design choice just like which carburetor suits your taste when you're building your small block for a Camaro. Some diesels did not get plugs and probably should have. Some got them and don't need them. Some got them in the north but not the south. I drove Motorcoaches and school buses in PA for 10 years. Our school buses had either Cummins (notice no "G" in that word) or International/Navistar diesels. None of them had glow plugs and all were IDI. What they did have was very high compression, good fuel management, and low RPM ranges. The recipe was stick a huge battery on a massive starter and let the compression do the heating. It worked fine without the common failures sometimes associated with glow plug circuits. I personally have owned two Powerstrokes (both 7.3 TDI), one 6.5T in a chevy, one Duramax in a 2005 1-ton, and one Cummins in a 2004 2500 Dodge. They all have glow plugs. Yes, even the Cummins. The Ford DI needed the plugs desperately. My GPR failed once and anything below 45 degrees it wouldn't start no matter what you tried. Conversely, the Cummins started down to 30 degrees without letting the plugs cycle.

Cat diesels in F450s: Nope. Not a chance. F650 and up only. If you have a Cat in a 450 one of two things happened: 1) someone stuffed the monster into a 450 as a custom job, although I don't think it would fit. It would also be terribly matched to the 450 making the front end drag the ground and its 2500 rpms would make it a poor torque choice for the mid-level driveline and . 2) someone way high up at Ford, like BOD or CEO, made a super special order for an extreme custom job. This is highly unlikely since it wouldn't be smart, and because its not a bolt in. Its not like ordering an F150 with a 460 which would be easy. My guess is that its not a Cat. A simple photo would settle this, so why don't you post one? If it is a Cat then you have a one-of-a-kind lump. If its not, then its settled.

Diesels being banned from states: Yup its happening. The answer to "why, why, why?" is because your legislators are being politicians. The biggest voices in the lobby are the car manufacturers and the environment groups. The car manufacturers have more money, but the environmentalists have more pull since the President would love to sign a bill that cuts emissions. It looks good on his resume. The true answer is that cushy legislators who, for the most part, don't know how a car works any more than how to do their own laundry, get propaganda which is called a report. They act on it doing what they think will get them re-elected. Two major things are lacking in the lobby: 1) the consumer's voice, and, 2) veritable engineering data on what actually causes emissions. The ironic thing about diesels is that the "smoke" you see is not what is harmful about the tailpipe output. That is just basically soot and oil which (a typical statistic states) driving one mile in a diesel is the same as your gas car dripping one drop of oil from a leak in one mile. The black soot falls to the ground and remains pretty harmless. The reason your diesel VW is being taken off the market is because the ARB has decided that (even though that diesel puts out a bare minimum of CO, HC, and particulates) since it makes unacceptable levels of NOx, its the devil and needs to be thwarted. Contact your local legislator and get your voice out there. Diesel could literally save the world by saving the atomosphere, nearly eliminating fossil fuel use, and employing billions of soy farmers making bio diesel. Combine that with the fact that the increase of nearly 200% in crop production and you're talking some seriously clean air. All oil/fat waste from by products including food service, auto maintenance, road construction, recycling, rendering, now no longer would end up in landfills destroying the soil, it would end up being burnt in diesel engines. Remember that gasoline is gasoline with a single chemical composition. Diesel refers to any fuel that burns with a certain set of characteristics. Gasoline is gasoline. Diesel is technically anything that burns in a diesel engine. And now a moment of silence for Rudolph Diesel for saving our world nearly 65 years after his death.

curtis73, welcome to the site and thankyou for your input re. glowplugs.
I had given up on the topic because almost everyone I spoke with contradicted almost everyone else, and I was speaking to people who work in the trade!

As for your comments on diesels being banned, I must disagree.
There is NO WAY that ANYONE would try to ban diesel engines ANYWHERE.
Why? Because road freight, construction / mining, the marine industry and many other areas worldwide all rely on diesel and at the moment there are NO alternatives. It is inconceivable that this will change any time within the next 20 years.

A few of your other comments need seperate attention but I will leave that until I have some sources gathered.

There were 3 Cat engines that were used in Fords(this was told to me by the Cat people). Cats idea, not Ford. Ford ultimately made a "freightliner wannabe" as the 650 in 2001, Its mostly used for RV towing, this is not a new revelation .
The pre trials in the late 90s had a series of engines that were used in the 150 and up. If you dont know that, dont question me. Mine has been a sweet ride for 4 years and Ive got 80 K on it , no "stuffing"
The CAT marine diesels and the small block (I think its 3+L) fit the 150 and a larger size was in the HD bodies for a market inroad. I cannot believe you havent found the articleI posted to Jar. It was definite info from Cat , how theyve been sticking engines into all sizes of Fords in the 1997-2002 period.. Apparently didnt result in big backing from Ford (as you know Ford is probably the least innovative of the trucks, theyve been with the same body style for 7 years).I got mine at a Ford dealer not a Cat equipt .

PS, , I wasnt sure what . HD I had , since the badge work had all been cleaned off and the only sticker that remains in the word Ford on the back.(I looked in the glove compartment Its actually a HD 350 4WD supercab with oversized wheels. It just looks bigger .. The wheels are just "for looks"
The trucks that Cat and ford co designed, were not done at the "CEO" level, they were design trials as part of a "small truck deisel program" and many were sold. Theres another one of my series used to pull a fifth wheeler . I think the guys fromIndiana (PA), or Bedford, although Im sure there are more.Ill bet that RV owners would have tried them, cause there was another bunch of HD owners who had special edition 550s with some weird deisel engine that was not known as a standard. I think it was a Yanmar or something like that There are also a couple of the F 150"little" cat deisels around

curtis--There used to be a biodiesel consortium where they would report on the state of the biodesiel market. They were in Vt and , I guess they just went out of business. Are there still any biodeisel companies around? (I dont mean university research or DOE research facilities)

Im not aware of the legislative action against deisel vehicles, seems counterintuitive. With the ag lobby here in PA as the 3rd biggest (after teachers and sportsmen), I dont think the farming community would lay down for this. The environmental lobby in PA hasnt ever been able to thwart any pro farming or ag security legislation.
I have all deisel Massey farm implements and an ag deisel tank installed , the tank has been installed wrt PAs USTIF regulations I get all kinds of news updates on fuel formulations and regs and Ive never heard anything about anti-deisel legislation.

The "smoke" you see most certainly is harmful. It contains particulates which are the main cause of "summer" smog. It also contains unburnt fuel which, when combined with NOx, is the main cause of "winter" smog. The claim of driving one mile in a diesel is the same as your gas car... is highly dubious. Do you have a link to the source curtis73?



Good luck finding those BILLIONS of soy farmers, you're going to need them.

These are all very rough figures but here goes;
The world uses roughly 4 billion litres of diesel a day.
Average soy yeilds would give you about 250 litres of oil per acre, per year.
That means that to meet world demand we would need to cultivate 5.84 billion acres of soy per year.
5.84 billion acres is almost 24 million square kilometres.
That's the size of Canada, the USA, Mexico AND Greenland put together!
Not very practical.

The first part of this is rubbish. Emissions would go through the roof if you started blending that stuff into diesel (mineral OR bio).

Gasoline does not have a single chemical composition.
It is a mixture of hydrocarbons just like diesel is.

He may not, but I do: LINK.

Forget soy. The best fuel would be hempseed oil--grows anywhere (2-3 crops/year in many places), on almost any land.

Ignore Farmermoron: he is so far off the wall (and knows it, though he won't admit it) that he is hopeless. Ford has

Ignore Farmermoron: he is so far off the wall (and knows it, though he won't admit it) that he is hopeless. Ford has NEVER, IN NO CASE ever put a Cat diesel in ANY truck smaller than an F-650. They have NEVER put a diesel in a production F-150. They had a diesel V6 developed for the 2004 F-150...but it wasn't a Cat. It was a NAVISTAR, like the HD trucks have used for 20 years.

Jarlaxle, what I'm wondering is where the claim above originates.

It is not true.

The link does not address the issue.

jar, got enough chest thumping done? now go back and read my link on the CAT small diesel program on the F 150 that began in 98 and was reported as a series of performance tech papers. This shows you how totally ignorant of this subject you are. I wonder how youre going to gradually change your opinion here so you dont look like you said "Ford NEVER..." Never say NEVER and thus put your credibility on the line . SInce youre flat wrong you look a little dim and have no left over credibility.

This is just silly. I've only read some of it. And that was silly. I expect the rest was even sillier.

American vehicles are too big. Europeans manage to move around in 1.9 and 2.2 and 2.5 litre diesel-engined cars, usually turbocharged, which are quiet, low-emission, economical, low-vibration and powerful. And lighter than they used to be. And, they can run on fuel made from plants grown in a temperate zone. Green diesel oil.

Not a clue--first time I've heard that one.

Tag, you may like driving in a cramped, slow, noisy beercan car, but I do not. I've driven small cars (including a diesel Escort that got ~50MPG), & loathed all of them--slow, cramped, uncomfortable, most of them rode like an oxcart, & a deathtrap in a crash. I'll keep my 4200lb Olds Custom Cruiser wagon & my F-350 4x4 diesel truck.

No european car with engine greater than 2 litre is a slow noisy beercan-type car. But I expect you knew that.

Don't Americans have a 55mph speed limit anyway, or a man walking in front with a red flag or something? And you can teach a lot about deathtrap cars, yes?

(Just entering into the spirit of the thread.)

The 55MPH limit was tossed...has to be ten years ago. The limit here is usually 65 (in the western part of the country, it's often higher--70-75), the flow of traffic is usually ~75-80.

ANY car dinky enough to run a 2 litre engine is a beercan.

Bigger is safer. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. There's a reason my boss (owned a towing company for over 20 years) drives a Ford Excursion.

How about a cheaper, cleaner and more technologically advanced alternative to diesels?
The answer is HYBRIDS. Toyota has been making hybrids for 7 years now and they will soon be coming out with hybrid versions of virtually all of the cars in its lineup. Expect a hybrid Highlander coming out soon.

You'd be super-safe, then, driving round in a Kenworth truck.
But, you'd also be super-stupid.
So, there has to be a dividing line between too small and too large, and the trick is knowing where to pitch it.
European legislation says, 2 litres or thereabouts for a normal sedan.

The discussion suddenly stopped there. Was that me?

Question: America is seen by the rest of the world as a country of oversized gas-guzzlers and an antisocial, anti-environmental adherence to SUVs and the like for personal transport.
Humvees and other US vehicles are sold here, to be true, but only to a very small niche market, to the kind of people here who like longhorn horns in the front and a confederate flag in the back.
Here comes the question: how far do you think the longterm availability of very cheap fuel, by European standards, has held back the development of the American automobile industry?

The TDI Golf & Jetta match a Prius's mileage (50+MPG reports are common from owners of broken-in cars), have no batteries, motors, or goofy computers to futz with, & are without a doubt far more entertaining to drive, with their manual transmissions & well-designed chassis.

My boss seriously considered replacing his Suburban with a lo-profile International or Freightliner crew-cab MDT. The main reason he didn't is it would have run him almost $65,000. I should point out the Excursion gets BETTER mileage than the smaller Suburban in replaced.

You drive your beercan cars. I'll keep my 7000lb truck & 4200lb station wagon. As many stupid drivers as I see daily (professional driver, wreckers & buses), I want some steel around me.