Diesels ---- the cars of the immediate future

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40% of new cars in Europe are diesels. You can get many American cars in Europe with diesels. If the US had the same% of diesels, we would be independent of foreign oil!

California has mandated low sulphur diesel fuel and other states will do the same. Diesel engines are very close to being less polluting than gas engines. The advances in deisel technology in the past ten years is nothing short of phenominal. Truck and bus companies have done a great deal of the development. The new Cummins diesel does not even have glow plugs or any kind of plugs. An electric grid heats incoming airto create combustion.

The attitude of the US consumer is primarily based on GM's V8 Oldsmobile diesel disaster. You can't convert a gas engine to a diesel by simply increasing the compression ratio. Most consumers still tend to think of diesel cars as underpowered, slow accelerating, noisy, smelly, polluting and undesireable transportatiion. The current diesels (VW, Mercedes,) do not fit that description.

Diesel engines are noisy. Not new diesels. The development of the common rail system of fuel injection has made diesels unoticeable.

Diesel engines are hard to start and impossible to start in cold weather.
Modern diesels ( Mercedes, VW,) start easily in below zero temperatures.

Diesels lack acceleratiion. Or to tell an old diesel joke, diesels don't accelerate, they gather momentum. Getting to be less and less a difference. The VW Jetta and Passat TDI (Turbo Direct Injection). put out 90 horse power. They also have 146 foot pounds of torque. The current diesels are still small engines for max mileage. Jetta TDI: 49 mpg.
In Europe, VW actually sells a 135 hp and a couple more at around 200hp.
They will begin importing the 135hp (I believe 240 pounds of torque.)

There is some research suggesting that

Chrysler is putting a diesel in the Durango. I believe other car makers will follow suit. At present, diesels account for only 1% of new cars. If and when consumers become as knowledgeable about diesels as they are about hybrids, my guess is they'll go diesel..

Yes, we drive a diesel. We have had a few diesels because of my wife's commute of 100 miles a day. A 1986 Jetta, 280,000 miles. Still running.
Traded in on a new 1996 VW Passat, TDI. It has 231,000 miles. Burns no oil. (I use 5-30 fully synthetic oil year round). No engiine work done on car. Exact size of Camry.
Gets 45 mpg with passengers at 80mph.

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Wow. That's good information, as I generally think of a large, clanky pickup truck when I think of diesels. But maybe it could be a good stepping stone until the next technology is worked out.

Anyone have some links to informative articles? (call me lazy!)

And a specific request, as I'm now shopping for a 21-foot RV. Most people I talk to about RV's shun diesels as smelly, loud, and hard to find a mechanic. Have you seen the more-refined technology in any RV's?

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I've got a diesel, my first.
It is a Peugeot 406.
It has now done 13000 miles averaging 44mpg
It is quiet, and does over 100 mph. Cruises happily at 85mph
Starts on the key, no glow plug as Billy says.
Plenty of electronic gismoes, too.
I like it.

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While I support the push for more deisel powered cars your opening statemnt saying that if the US had 40% of our cars running on it we'd be independent of foreign oil is far from true.

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Diesel isn't really better, I don't think, as far as pollution and health risk are concerned:

CBS
NRDC
American Lung Association

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littek - why do you think so?

I think the only remaining problem of diesel cars are that they emit very small particles which is of course a health risk(cancer) but Peugeot already solved this problem with a particle filter.

Another problem is of course that they still use fossil fuels but that's another story...

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I dont know where you guys get this NO GLOW PLUG, all diesels have to have ignition at starting. Even though diesel self ignites by the compression, I dont know of any engines that dont have glow plugs for assurance of fire, especially at cold starts. I have 3 (2 NEW Ford HD 350s and an 00 RV ) and they are not clankyat all. The diesel engine does have preignition because of the higher compression but the sound is not bad unless you have a Cummings, for some reason Cummings are loud engines, as are most boat diesels(probably cause they dont use much sound surpression)
As far as driving,I see that they can blow away most cars. I can cruise all day at 100mph at 2200 rpm.. Theyre great engines, but Ive had my trucks fit up with after market sound proofing so I can listen to
string quartets and piano jazz.

Codeborg-I have a Prevost RV and its a diesel "pusher" Anyone who shuns diesel RVs is not thinking strait. All the best RVs use diesels. If you get a class C, you can get a diesel also. Ford has 2 diesels available, an IH 7.5 and the CAT 8.5 .
The only thing I dont like with the Bus rig is that its difficult to find a campground with big enough spaces. The pusher format (engine in back like a greyhound) is verrry quiet cause they come sound proofed from the ma ker.and theiroverall construction has them made into small capsules between the engine and youso that sound is deadened over the road. Even the 6kw sideboard generator is a little Yanmar so when we are "drydocking" we can use the conveniences like the convection oven or TV and stereo.or washers and its quite quiet.

However,If I had to do it over, Id get a Class C 30 footer with a slide out and the Cat diesel. Class C's are not such a pain in the ass to drive in small roads and a 30 footer loses a very small amt of space except for outside storage compartments

Since all newer diesels have intercoolers and turbos you will be toolin down the road at fairly good fuel economy compared to the !0 cylinder gas engines or the 460 gas engines that Winnebago uses..(13 mpg v 7 or 8 ) Working on a big rig is harder than a class C but with a big truck/bus engine the mechanics are all over the place. Ive had more problems with the washer/dryer and the auto-awnings than the engine.
Remember-diesel fuel goes up in the winter when its base formulation competes with kerosene and No 2 heating oil. It drops below regular gas starting about late April.

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owi, one reason I think so is that I read articles like the ones I posted links to in my previous post.

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Farmerman,

The fact is, the new Cummings diesels do not have glow plugs. They fire because the intake air is hot enough to cause ignition. Call your local Dodge Ram dealer and ask. And the noise level must have been cut in half.

As I understand it (and I'm no expert), the common rail injection system injects several (4? 5?) puffs of air/fuel mixture each time a cylinder fires. This results in more efficientcy and a quieter sounding engine. So quiet that the new VW diesels will be almost indistinguishable from gas engines in sound.

I recently spoke to a diesel lover from Boston and, he too, complained of the winter price of diesel. As far as I know, there is no winter price where I live.

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fishin', This article is quite enlightening - diesel use affects imported oil

In testimony before the U. S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, the Diesel Technology Forum (DTF) advocacy group touted wider use of clean diesel technology as a way to reduce energy consumption in the transportation sector - thereby cutting U.S. reliance on foreign oil imports.

"Diesel engines can reduce fuel consumption by 30% to 60% over comparable gasoline engines, especially in popular sport-utility vehicles and light-trucks, which now make up more than half of all new U.S. vehicle sales," said Allen Schaeffer, DTF executive director. "Because of its fuel efficiency, diesel now accounts for over one-third of all new vehicle sales in Europe, and in the luxury and premium sectors, diesels comprise over 70% of all new sales."

Schaffer said a 30% market penetration of light-duty diesel technology by 2020 would reduce net crude oil imports by 700,000 barrels per day, according to the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE). "This is an amount equivalent to cutting in half the total energy used each day in the state of California," he said.

Also, light-duty diesel vehicles have won three of the top five DOE ratings for fuel efficiency, exceeded only by gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles. Schaffer added that advanced European diesel technology passenger vehicles exceed today's U.S. hybrid fuel efficiency by over 60%.

"There are significant opportunities for advanced-technology clean diesel engines to play a much larger role in saving energy, particularly in boosting the fuel efficiency of popular sport-utility vehicles and light-trucks," said Schaeffer. "Not only are the engines more fuel-efficient, they have 30% to 60% lower greenhouse gas emissions than conventional gasoline engines."

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littek, all or most of this mentioned problems are solveable or already have been solved.

ad particles) use a car with particle filter(peugeot) -> leads to reduction of particles up to 99%
ad sulfur) use ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) -> leads to a reduction of CO by 50%, particles by 40% and HC/NOx by 10%
ad schoolbus) i think this is a problem of the construction of schoolbus, not of the usage of diesel as fuel.

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How does this:

BillyFalcon wrote:

Schaffer said a 30% market penetration of light-duty diesel technology by 2020 would reduce net crude oil imports by 700,000 barrels per day, according to the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE). "This is an amount equivalent to cutting in half the total energy used each day in the state of California," he said.

Match with your original opening statement:

Quote:

40% of new cars in Europe are diesels. You can get many American cars in Europe with diesels. If the US had the same% of diesels, we would be independent of foreign oil!

There is a pretty significant difference between a reduction in imports of 700,000 barrels/day vs. the total elimination of the 8,300,000 barrels/day that we currently import.

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owi - that's good to hear. can they do something to deal with the way they stink? And, when will all the fixes be required?

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billy falcon..Didnt we once have this discussion over on abuzz? I dont know about the VW or other car diesels but, the two Cummins diesels used in the Dodge trucks (std and HO) both use glow plugs (newest 2003 versions of hO) . I even asked our fleet mechanics. We have a bunch of company trucksFord Chevy Dodge and were trying out a Volvo box rig for hauling explosives. ALL of them use glowplugs.
Diesel is a low end fraction and it self-ignites in the end of the the compression developed in the stroke. Thats why a diesel is beefier . However, nobody screws with cold starts because diesel will not self ignite when its like jelly, so not putting in glow plugs would be like throwing away the starter. There is already enough power drain to start thats why truck diesels have 2 or even 3 batteries, so, for the truck engines at least, glowplugs are there. I just tried one of our 2002 fleet dodges and the start cycle involves an 'ON" and a separate "start" position with the idea that one should turn on for heat then start the preignition by the compression stroke the rail or siderail injectors do allow a cycled series of "puffs" to mix in and when the self ignition point is reachedWHAM engine starts. The Dodge has been redesigned this year for more hp and torque (so it could catch up with Ford and Chevy) Theyve added their version of an intercooler and the siderail injectors and all of them now use turbos, so the power on takeoff is very good, like a gas engine. The only thing that Dodge added to its 5.7 L 24v engine is a "jake brake", why they did that is unknown because the truck, when towing relies on stopping power by electric brakes from the trailer. A Jake brake is kind of dumb for pickup trucks , and itll just rattle the windows and make an already loud diesel even louder. rEmember the cummins is only a six cylinder so its got bigger ports than the 7.3 L Fords or 6.6 chevies and its a straight , not a V.

I do agree with your initial point however, diesel is a"now" solution to emmissions and meeting cAFE standards. if people knew more about the benefits of diesels , theyd be receptive to owning them.

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diesel glow plugs
Farmerman. Read these comments about glow plugs. I'm not trying to be right. I'm just curious now whether there are diesels that start without plugs.
This source states it in no uncertain terms, but may not be a reliablesource.

Carmudgeon
Live and Let Die-sel
By Karl Brauer
Date Posted 08-30-2002

---------------------------------------
However, as a certified diesel hater, I must admit that modern diesels are difficult to despise. If you're like me, and haven't given diesels a serious look in the last 10 years, you owe it to yourself to check out the 21st century version.

First, diesels don't have to be plugged in anymore. In fact, you don't even have to wait for the little red light on the dash to go out before turning the key (OK, you haven't had to do that for over 20 years). The truth is that many of today's diesel engines don't use glow plugs at all. Instead, modern engine controllers account for cold-start temperatures to get a diesel engine to fire, meaning no glow plugs necessary.

Second, they don't smell anymore, either. Improvements in fuel-injection technology have made diesel engines almost as odorfree as traditional gasoline engines. They also expel less smoke than they used to (note: we're talking cars and heavy-duty pickups here; busses and semis often still puke lots of blue smoke and black dust into the air).

Finally (and this is a big one for me), they no longer sound like a cross between your Uncle Fred's empty stomach and a high-performance engine running on low-performance fuel. Normally, the high-compression ratio of diesels is to blame for the percolating noises from under the hood. Unlike a gasoline engine, diesel engines don't rely on spark plugs to ignite the fuel. Instead, they simply use a combination of high compression and less refined fuel to cause detonation during the piston's compression stroke. This makes a diesel engine more efficient, thus contributing to its superior fuel mileage. Ignition without a spark can happen in gasoline engines, too. It's called predetonation, or pinging, and while it's a very bad thing in a gasoline engine, it's a common element in a diesel engine. As with the smell and cold-start issues, you can thank technology for the reduction of diesel noise. By carefully controlling the amount and timing of fuel being directly injected into the combustion chamber, modern diesels run smoother and quieter.
------------------------------------------------

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billy falcon-I remember that post from abuzz. i didnt realize it was a published statement cuz id seen it in a thread over there.
All I can say is that the writer is incorrect. we still need to start the engine and a glowplug (most cylinders have 2), in the cold, will assure a start . the 'plug in" feature is well known to be a little extra for trucks in , like, Minnesota. If the temperature regularly goes below 0 F, the viscosity of the diesel is high and it can get thixatropic and sort of freeze.
you are correct that diesel self-ignites because of its refining properties as a nicely compressible fluid. You can pack a lot of compressive energy into the fuel and this then , coupled with air results in compression ignition. HOWEVER, the glow plugs still carry on to prevent missfire and even more pre-ignition which is the signature sound of a good diesel engine.

As far as "the little red light' , most US trucks dont even have a little red light. they have a dinger that you can ignore. However, when one does this we get too much fuel because its cold, then when the glowplug fires, you have a controlled(well, maybe not so controlled) explosion and a huge puff of white acrid smoke and water coming out the manifold and the pipe.

That author is only guilty of hyberbole and overzealous accolading the whole diesel system. But , still your overall point is quite correct and Ive been a diesel fan since the mid 90s when they started making turbo assist engines for trucks. Im also a fan of the stump pulling power of the engines at low revs.'
there is one environmental feature that everyone ignores. Diesels kick out much more Nox than gasoline engines, and removing this will be the refineries job of getting the amine compounds oxidized at the cracker

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Farmerman,

Thanks for your posts and enthusiasm on the subject of diesels. You may have created some curiousity about diesels which is what I hoped to accomplish.

A few more observations. You are right that diesel fuel can jell up in below zero weather. However, most refineries winterize their fuel to prevent that. Additives to prevent gelling are also available.

You mentioned driving all day at high speed and low rpms. That's the beauty of diesels. The torque rating is exceptionally high. Last summer, I was in England and a friend showed up with a Czech Skoda diesel. It's basically a VW Passat but longer with, I believe, a 180hp diesel engine or there abouts. It was a six speed stick shift. We were in the outskirts of York and I soon realized we were going 80 to 90mph. I begged for leniency. Then, he did my bidding. Put it in sixth gear and slowly let out the clutch. The car smoothly accelerated and was going about 30mph. He floored it and it took off like a scared rabbit.

Oh, by the way, for several years VW has sold a four passenger car called Lupo. It gets a bonafide 78mpg. On a round the globe rally, it averaged
a fraction over 98 mpg. [98 mpg]

I'll be happy when we get these choices.

Mayb, we'll have these choices soon.

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Billy falcon-no problem , Id like to comment on the anti gelling additives. I work in the mining arena and am constantly trying to solve environmental problems from toxicants we use as fluids, additives, flotation chemicals, and extraction chemicals, soi I keep a huge library of info about 'additives"
One of the additives that they put in diesel, is MTBE, methyl tertiary butyl ether. Its a verys soluble ether used to up the oxygen in gas and to lower the viscosity in diesel. Since diesel fuel is mostly an "OIL" (really), whenever its pumped the viscosity keeps it in the delivery nozzles longer so that it drips onto the ground a lot more than gas. Consequently, you may notice that the ground around fuel pumps in a diesel fillup station is pretty soiled with oil. This little amount of dripping fuel , over time (2 to 5 years of inattention) can cause a serious spill of diesel laced with about 7 to 10% MTBE. Now diesel quickly attenuates(it sticks to the soil) but MTBE is so soluble that it can be separated from the diesel fraction and dissolved by rainwater and it can then sink into the ground water causing serious (many times) fuel spills.
CAlifornia has an MCL (maximum contamination level) for MTBE, of 0.0 ppb (parts per billion) in water and most other states and the EPA use 20 ppb as a regulated standard. Its really easy to cause a 20 ppb plume of badass ground water
So this is a dirty little refinery secret and they are now thinking about taking MTBE out of the diesel (in another 5 years). They dont have a suitable viscosity additive other than similar ethers like Di Isopropyl ether. Alcohol; isnt a good one in this case because of its water content. So, we shall wait and see what further monsters our technology can create ( We try to solve one problem by creating another)
we may, therefore, have to go back to the plug in block heaters.

the diesel on my RV is a monster . witha turbo and all. however, being a bus with dual tandem rear axles, we dont wish to do "wheelies" so the torque is channeled by converters and by a huuuge fkywheel so that it accelerates just like any Greyhound. We call it "The queen mother" and like the proper royalty she is, she attains highway speed, then slowly attains warp drive with a very smooth acceleration that rivals a starship.

PS, I would love to see a little diesel mini cooper.

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littek -

ad a)I don't think that modern diesel cars stink that much.
ad b)I can't answer this question.

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Well, just adding that I drive Diesel cars since more than 20 years, have never used glowing in them (only in older ones), and Diesel here doesn't freeze until temperature is below 26° C = -14.8° F (you get 'Winter Diesel' from October onwards, and nothing else).

My 2 ltr Opel/Vauxhall Astra has a turbo emgine, does 170 km/h easily, needs as average 5.8 l/100 km, did 170,000 km altogether and is 4 years old. (Would have bought a new one, but waiting for the new model next year)

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Diesels ---- the cars of the immediate future

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