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Is God cruel?

 
 
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 09:06 am
I'll try to keep this short:
My argument is that the Bible is consistent with regards to the characterization of Jehovah as a God of mercy and loving kindness.

We started out in the Garden of Eden, which seems to have been a really fine place, so:

Where did war and crime and sickness and death originate?
When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad they rebelled against God's sovereignty and plunged the entire human race into degradation. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. . ." (Romans 5:12)

Is that all? Or is God going to do something about it?

God promised a remedy in the third chapter of Genesis; but much time would come to pass before a resolution. It may seem interminable to us, but Psalm 90:4 reminds us that to God a thousand years passes as a 'watch in the night'.

Meantimes God is the 'judge of the earth'. (Genesis 18:25)

All who have been born under Adam are subject to death; so does it matter in the grand scheme of things how anybody dies? Keep in mind that those who never knew god have been promised a resurrection where they will have the opportunity to regain all that Adam and Eve lost. (John 5: 28) When they once again taste a breath of fresh air, will they curse God for their now forgotten pain or thank him for their life?

So, what has the earth been like - the earth of whom God is the judge? Particularly, what were the nations like which were destroyed by God? (I'll stick with the Canaanites for now, though similar arguments can be made for other acts of execution.)

The Canaanite religion was extraordinarily base and degraded. Perhaps you are not offended by their practice of idolatry, incest, sodomy, and bestiality, but what about child sacrifice? Did you know is was the practice to place their living infants into the outstretched arms of the idol so they would fall into the fire? Some were quite old enough to realize what was happening. Can you imagine their terror? Do you think the civilization deserved to continue?

You may ask what was so great about the Israelites that they were chosen to be God's people?
Nothing, except God had made a covenant with their ancestor Abraham.

And why were they chosen from time to time to be God's executioners?
Again, does it make any difference in the grand scheme of things who puts a condemned person to death? The fact that the Israelites were victorious over seven nations having greater military might was to be further evidence of God's power to deliver.

Were the life and message of Jesus out of harmony with the God of the OT?

That Jesus reportedly cured he sick, healed the lame and raised the dead is often cited as evidence that his personality was not the same as his father's. Yet, there were many instances of healing, resurrection and deliverance in the OT. And God certainly did give us the thing we value most: namely, life. Keep in mind that Jesus' message of salvation was tempered with warnings about the destruction of the wicked. Read of separating the sheep from the goats in Matthew chapter 25, vss. 33-45. (Or, of his condemnation of the Pharisees (Matthew 23:33)

OK, my neck is exposed. Chop away!
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 6,306 • Replies: 147
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 10:16 am
I'm just gonna sit here and watch the blood sports . . . popcorn?
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Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 10:17 am
Buttered?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 10:23 am
Yeah . . . but not salted . . . most people can't take as much salt as i like . . . Neo, i know it's morning on the left coast, but it's afternoon here. Where's the cold drinks?
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 10:29 am
Rasinets! Gotta have Rasinets!
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 10:41 am
neo wrote:
I'll try to keep this short:


I'd say you failed.


Anyway, you talk about the cruelty of man and lay it at the feet of some external entity.

I think that can be unhealty.. :wink:
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 11:02 am
Embarrassed

I spelled Raisinets wrong....
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 11:05 am
Only if you make snide remarks about how insane he was until the kid was born.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 11:14 am
bm

(god doesn't matter)
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SN95
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 12:45 pm
Quote:
Where did war and crime and sickness and death originate?
When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad they rebelled against God's sovereignty and plunged the entire human race into degradation. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. . ." (Romans 5:12)


Punishing an entire race because of two people's actions sounds cruel to me.
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Ellinas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 01:02 pm
Depends to the god you are following. My God is peaceful.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 01:26 pm
Hi, neo.

I'd like to hear your take on a couple of things that have always bothered me.

You know the gay thing-- If God made us all, why did he make gay people and then, condemn them... but also why did he "harden Pharoah's heart", in order to ensure the first born sons of Egypt died? Sort of unnecessary roughness, wouldn't you say?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 01:45 pm
Neo

You say you want to argue that your god is a god of mercy and loving kindness...and then you start out with the story of Eden...which is one of the least merciful, least loving, least kind stories in the book.

The story of Adam and Eve in Eden essentially is the story of a god who puts two completely naive, unknowledgeable individuals into an artificial situation of high intensity temptation...

...intentionally withholds from them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong...

...and intentionally allows access to them by the greatest tempter the tale has to offer.

They have absolutely no way of knowing right from wrong (that knowledge is, as I said, intentionally withheld from them)...

...they have absolutely no way of knowing good from evil (that knowledge is intentionally withheld from them)...

...and they have absolutely no way of knowing that there is anything whatever wrong with disobeying the god.

And the Great Deceiver is tempting them to do just that.

The god...in what I referred to as "an artificial situation of high intensity temptation" requires that they not eat the fruit of a particular tree in Eden...

...and when they do...as any school kid could have told you they would do...

...the god goes ballistic.

Not only does the god punish both of them exceedingly severely for what essentially is a minor infraction which they had no way of knowing was even wrong...

...the god also punishes all the rest of mankind forever into the future.

Neo...how the hell can you argue that this shows the god to be one of mercy and loving kindness?

How could any sane person argue that?

What on earth are you thinking??????

Earlier someone commented "Punishing an entire race because of two people's actions sounds cruel to me. "

Good grief, Neo...even punishing the two principals under these circumstances sounds cruel to me. It sounds insane!
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 01:48 pm
By the way, Neo...you asked "Is God cruel?"

I do not even know if there is God...but to suppose the god of the Bible is what any God actually is like is a stretch.

The god of the Bible IS CRUEL.

That does not mean that any God that might exist...is necessarily cruel.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 01:53 pm
You have a point frank.

Adam and Eve had been denied the wisdom, so they were defenseless against the persuasions of the snake.

But it's clever though. A trap they couldn't possibly avoid. Cheeky...
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 02:23 pm
Cyracuz wrote:
You have a point frank.

Adam and Eve had been denied the wisdom, so they were defenseless against the persuasions of the snake.

But it's clever though. A trap they couldn't possibly avoid. Cheeky...


Incredible.

And to be used as an example of a caring, kind, compassionate god is almost beyond comprehension.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 02:57 pm
Depends on what kind of compassion and caring we're talking about.

Suddenly I thought about 'A boy named Sue', the Johnny Cash song. Tough love. Smile
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 03:22 pm
Accuse God of cruelty all you want. He has the perfect excuse: he doesn't exist.
At least I'm guessing he does not exist.
How's that, Frank?
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 03:32 pm
God is a term. As I understand the genesis of the bible it is a tail of cytogenesis. A metaphor.

God is merely a term referring to the concept of Everything. Existence with all it's riddles.

Understood like that it makes sense that 'god is everywhere', and god is 'omnicent and flawless'.

Everything, Reality, the Universe or whatever you want to call it can be thought of as a singularity.
It is my belief that this is what the bible means when referring to god.

So it's a tricky situation. I believe god exists, because to me it is a matter of definition. But this is not so with everyone, so I find the term god rather useless.
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rhymer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 03:48 pm
God can only be found in temples. He exists nowhere else.
He is not in all temples, but if he has been in your temple you will never remove him.
If he is in your temple now you can ignore him totally if you so wish.
Some people try to get god into other peoples temples, thinking it will be good for them.

I currently have a headache in my temple!

It is for each individual to decide whether to let god into their temple and whether to take any notice of him.

Exactly the same is applicable to the devil.
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