0
   

Is God cruel?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 04:01 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Accuse God of cruelty all you want. He has the perfect excuse: he doesn't exist.
At least I'm guessing he does not exist.
How's that, Frank?


I'll give you an A+ on that one, JL.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 06:29 pm
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 07:32 pm
Sorry to have been gone so long. I still haven't read all the response. But I promise when I return I will have some cold drinks.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 08:21 pm
SN95 wrote:
Quote:
Where did war and crime and sickness and death originate?
When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad they rebelled against God's sovereignty and plunged the entire human race into degradation. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. . ." (Romans 5:12)


Punishing an entire race because of two people's actions sounds cruel to me.
Well, what were the possible consequences?

God's power was not in question. In fact, if he had destroyed Adam and Eve, you and I would not have been born.

What had been questioned was God's right to sovereignty and the integrity of his intelligent creatures.

The entire history of the human race may be counted as testimony in the dispute between Satan and God. And, while I have no doubt that God should have been declared winner many centuries ago, that decision is not mine to make.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 08:44 pm
Lash wrote:
Hi, neo.

I'd like to hear your take on a couple of things that have always bothered me.

You know the gay thing-- If God made us all, why did he make gay people and then, condemn them... but also why did he "harden Pharaoh's heart", in order to ensure the first born sons of Egypt died? Sort of unnecessary roughness, wouldn't you say?
Saving 'the gay thing" for later:
As far as pharaoh was concerned, remember that he was considered a God and his position was an integral part of Egyptian religion. At some point, God saw it necessary to demonstrate his power over the false religion of the Egyptians. I have no doubt that Pharaoh had already shown his inclinations and the hardening of his heart had to do with his seemingly moronic lack of fear.

As for the death of innocents during the passover, God has promised that those who never knew him will have another chance.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 08:48 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Neo

You say you want to argue that your god is a god of mercy and loving kindness...and then you start out with the story of Eden...which is one of the least merciful, least loving, least kind stories in the book.

The story of Adam and Eve in Eden essentially is the story of a god who puts two completely naive, unknowledgeable individuals into an artificial situation of high intensity temptation...

...intentionally withholds from them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong...

...and intentionally allows access to them by the greatest tempter the tale has to offer.

They have absolutely no way of knowing right from wrong (that knowledge is, as I said, intentionally withheld from them)...

...they have absolutely no way of knowing good from evil (that knowledge is intentionally withheld from them)...

...and they have absolutely no way of knowing that there is anything whatever wrong with disobeying the god.

And the Great Deceiver is tempting them to do just that.

The god...in what I referred to as "an artificial situation of high intensity temptation" requires that they not eat the fruit of a particular tree in Eden...

...and when they do...as any school kid could have told you they would do...

...the god goes ballistic.

Not only does the god punish both of them exceedingly severely for what essentially is a minor infraction which they had no way of knowing was even wrong...

...the god also punishes all the rest of mankind forever into the future.

Neo...how the hell can you argue that this shows the god to be one of mercy and loving kindness?

How could any sane person argue that?

What on earth are you thinking??????

Earlier someone commented "Punishing an entire race because of two people's actions sounds cruel to me. "

Good grief, Neo...even punishing the two principals under these circumstances sounds cruel to me. It sounds insane!
Why is it that many who read this account do not come away with the same interpretation? What words would you have had Moses include to assure you that Adam and Eve were not naive and disobeyed of their own free will?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2006 08:55 pm
Now for refreshments:

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/beer.gif
http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/pizza.gif
And for the teetotaler:
http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/pepsi.gif
A llittle music:
http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/band.gif
Now back to our chat:
http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/gathering.gif
0 Replies
 
Bartikus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 01:11 am
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Neo

You say you want to argue that your god is a god of mercy and loving kindness...and then you start out with the story of Eden...which is one of the least merciful, least loving, least kind stories in the book.

The story of Adam and Eve in Eden essentially is the story of a god who puts two completely naive, unknowledgeable individuals into an artificial situation of high intensity temptation...

...intentionally withholds from them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong...

...and intentionally allows access to them by the greatest tempter the tale has to offer.

They have absolutely no way of knowing right from wrong (that knowledge is, as I said, intentionally withheld from them)...

...they have absolutely no way of knowing good from evil (that knowledge is intentionally withheld from them)...

...and they have absolutely no way of knowing that there is anything whatever wrong with disobeying the god.

And the Great Deceiver is tempting them to do just that.

The god...in what I referred to as "an artificial situation of high intensity temptation" requires that they not eat the fruit of a particular tree in Eden...

...and when they do...as any school kid could have told you they would do...

...the god goes ballistic.

Not only does the god punish both of them exceedingly severely for what essentially is a minor infraction which they had no way of knowing was even wrong...

...the god also punishes all the rest of mankind forever into the future.

Neo...how the hell can you argue that this shows the god to be one of mercy and loving kindness?

How could any sane person argue that?

What on earth are you thinking??????

Earlier someone commented "Punishing an entire race because of two people's actions sounds cruel to me. "

Good grief, Neo...even punishing the two principals under these circumstances sounds cruel to me. It sounds insane!
Why is it that many who read this account do not come away with the same interpretation? What words would you have had Moses include to assure you that Adam and Eve were not naive and disobeyed of their own free will?


You mean they had the choice to.....obey God Neo? What kind of loving father does'nt discipline a child for disobedience I wonder? Should the child decide what the punishment should be? The discipline that a child receives always seems harsh and cruel to the child at the time......does it not?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 02:57 am
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Neo

You say you want to argue that your god is a god of mercy and loving kindness...and then you start out with the story of Eden...which is one of the least merciful, least loving, least kind stories in the book.

The story of Adam and Eve in Eden essentially is the story of a god who puts two completely naive, unknowledgeable individuals into an artificial situation of high intensity temptation...

...intentionally withholds from them the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong...

...and intentionally allows access to them by the greatest tempter the tale has to offer.

They have absolutely no way of knowing right from wrong (that knowledge is, as I said, intentionally withheld from them)...

...they have absolutely no way of knowing good from evil (that knowledge is intentionally withheld from them)...

...and they have absolutely no way of knowing that there is anything whatever wrong with disobeying the god.

And the Great Deceiver is tempting them to do just that.

The god...in what I referred to as "an artificial situation of high intensity temptation" requires that they not eat the fruit of a particular tree in Eden...

...and when they do...as any school kid could have told you they would do...

...the god goes ballistic.

Not only does the god punish both of them exceedingly severely for what essentially is a minor infraction which they had no way of knowing was even wrong...

...the god also punishes all the rest of mankind forever into the future.

Neo...how the hell can you argue that this shows the god to be one of mercy and loving kindness?

How could any sane person argue that?

What on earth are you thinking??????

Earlier someone commented "Punishing an entire race because of two people's actions sounds cruel to me. "

Good grief, Neo...even punishing the two principals under these circumstances sounds cruel to me. It sounds insane!
Why is it that many who read this account do not come away with the same interpretation? What words would you have had Moses include to assure you that Adam and Eve were not naive and disobeyed of their own free will?


Since the very point of the story is that Adam and Eve were NOT TO EAT of the fruit of the tree which would give them the knowledge...

...you have absolutely no reason to assume they did have the knowledge.

THEY DID NOT KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG.

That is the point of the story.

There is no question about that...because the point of the story is that they did not know right from wrong; good from evil...and that the god was instructing them not to obtain that knowledge.

For you to pretend that I am simply being stubborn...and that there were words Moses could have used to change things is absurd.

It is a flawed fairytale...and anyone defending it as an object lesson...especially as an object lesson of a loving, kind, merciful god...simply has taken leave of his/her senses.

As for your question: "Why is it that many who read this account do not come away with the same interpretation?"...

...I suspect it is because some people want to pretend the god of this tale is loving, kind, and merciful...no matter what is actually written there.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 12:24 pm
You remember my friend Joe Sixpack and the story I told you about our mutual friend, Felbo? He died in that awful car wreck, remember? I told the story here and you enjoyed it, though I'm sure you shed a tear for Felbo as did we all.
Joe tells the story better than me:

So, after the funeral, his wife, Elbonia decides t' buy another wunna them same fancy cars with th' settlement munney. Wunna th'other features was it'd durn near repair and service itself. I mean you couldn't run outta oil, 'r gas 'r air in yer tires; a little light would come on, and a beeper. But the great part was all the service, includin' gas, was free at the dealer fer keeps. The handbook said if'n ya did it yerself, it would void the war'nty; but 'Bonia was OK with that. She just did like it said.

Everything was agoin' fine.

Then she married Dweebo.

After a while, Dweebo said. "Why cain't ya sevice th' car yerself? Look at this Chiltons here; ain't it purdy? It says you'll be better off doin' it yerself. We'll be knowin everthin' them Detroit fellers knows; and, no waitin'. We c'n do 'er in the driveway."

So, next time the oil change light comes on, ol' Dweebo buys some 30 weight an' a oil filter at WalMart. It saved time, sure 'nuff. Then there was this little noise. . .

They was akinda skeered t' go t' the dealer, 'causea the WalMart oil change 'nall; but after not bein' able to find it in Chiltons, they prett' much had to take it in. 'Ceptn, they couldn't fool th' dealer guy.

Right away, he sez "Have you folks been a servicin' this here car yerselfs' like it sez y' cain't do in the handbook?"

Then 'Bonia sez "My husband Dweebo is smarter'n me and he said. . ."

And Dweebo sez "This here Chiltons sez y' c'n do'er yisself.

But the dealer guy answered "Ya couln't leave well enough alone, could ya?. . .Well folks, yer war'nty ain't no good no more. Yer on yer own. Buy yer own stuff. The cars gonna croak in a few years and there ain't nothin ya c'n do about it. Please exit in the right lane. . ."
0 Replies
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 06:29 pm
Neo, I fail to understand why you even started the thread. Were you asking for our opinion or merely preaching? If it was the latter then by all means stop reading at this point.

It has already been brought up why it was cruel to persecute Adam and Eve in the first place. I won't reiterate.

We'll talk about consequences since you brought it up. For argument sake, let's say Adam and Eve were "guilty" of eating the fruit and obtaining knowledge. You assume that, if he had destroyed them we would not be born today. Well how do you know that? This is God we're talking about right? Couldn't he just start over again and make two more people? Oh I don't know how about Sarah and Steve? We'd just trace our lineage back to Sarah and Steve instead of Adam and Eve. Problem solved.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 08:18 pm
I was stating my opinion which I understand is not widely accepted. I'm ready to defend it or be educated by my fellow a2kers. If you had seen some of my earlier posts, you would realize I have made some changes.

But I take issue with your kill 'em all and start over solution. God's power was not questioned. Rather, it was his very right to be God. I'd be happy to hear further from you and others on this.

Your assertion that it was cruel to persecute Adam and Eve has yet to be proved. It assumes they were incapable of exercising free will.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 08:24 pm
Why would God start over? He created Adam and Eve. Future generations would grow through this creation. Rather than re-create what He had created in the first place, he provided that the decendants could receive grace and forgiveness. This is why he ultimately sent Jesus Christ.
0 Replies
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 08:53 pm
You assumed that had Adam and Eve been destroyed (your word not mine) we would not be here. I simply suggested an alternative.

Quote:
But I take issue with your kill 'em all and start over solution.


Kill 'em all? Umm we're talking about two people here. Lets not be overdramatic. Besides the kill'em all solution is hardly something I can take credit for, I believe that honor goes to your God.

Book of Exodus wrote:
Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 09:55 pm
Re: Is God cruel?
neologist wrote:
I'll try to keep this short:
My argument is that the Bible is consistent with regards to the characterization of Jehovah as a God of mercy and loving kindness.



GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.
GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.
GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.
GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).
GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."
EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.
EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.
EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.
EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.
LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."
LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."
LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.
LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)
NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.
NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.
NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.
NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.
NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.
NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.
NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.
NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.
NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."
NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."
NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."
NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.
NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.
NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)
NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

Can't you just feel the love? I tried to keep it short too, so let me know if you want the rest of the mercy and loving kindness. I'll be happy to share.
P
0 Replies
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 09:58 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Why would God start over?


Why not? Only takes the guy six days to create the entire earth. What's a few seconds of his time...consider Adam and Eve a mulligan.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 10:10 pm
Pauligirl, are you taking credit for what was written by Donald Morgan? Shocked

You could have at least posted a link to your source.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 10:29 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Pauligirl, are you taking credit for what was written by Donald Morgan? Shocked

You could have at least posted a link to your source.


Sorry, but I didn't know Donald Morgan wrote the bible. I got it simply as a list in email. Since it is from the bible, do you want to address what it says or quibble over someone's paraphrasing ?

P
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 10:39 pm
Pauligirl wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Pauligirl, are you taking credit for what was written by Donald Morgan? Shocked

You could have at least posted a link to your source.


Sorry, but I didn't know Donald Morgan wrote the bible. I got it simply as a list in email. Since it is from the bible, do you want to address what it says or quibble over someone's paraphrasing ?

P


No, Donald Morgan did not write the bible. He wrote the words you typed exactly....you did not paraphrase. This can all be found at infidels.org.

You should really give credit where credit is due rather than make a post of somebody else's words and sign them with your -P as if you had written it yourself.

I will put the same effort into an answer to what you posted as you did to coming up with them.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2006 10:52 pm
Intrepid wrote:
Pauligirl wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Pauligirl, are you taking credit for what was written by Donald Morgan? Shocked

You could have at least posted a link to your source.


Sorry, but I didn't know Donald Morgan wrote the bible. I got it simply as a list in email. Since it is from the bible, do you want to address what it says or quibble over someone's paraphrasing ?

P


No, Donald Morgan did not write the bible. He wrote the words you typed exactly....you did not paraphrase. This can all be found at infidels.org.

You should really give credit where credit is due rather than make a post of somebody else's words and sign them with your -P as if you had written it yourself.

I will put the same effort into an answer to what you posted as you did to coming up with them.


I was referring to his paraphrasing of the bible verses. Had I gotten it off his website, I would have given him credit. But I got it in an email. But I can understand your response to it.
P
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Is God cruel?
  3. » Page 2
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 04/30/2024 at 01:15:31