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Democratic Party leadership statements of support for Israel

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:01 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Cyclo, You're wasting your energies on morons; they'll never admit to the fact ...
Ignorance is divine.

Why introduce personal insults into the thread?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:03 am
Lash, When there are so many web sites one can access concerning the issue of Israel as a democracy, it's easy to see it it not. If people ignores all that information, what other conclusions are there?

If you can prove me wrong, I'll apologize to everybody.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:03 am
I know, I know...

Sorry I didn't answer yer PM the other day (cat emergency knocked it from my mind).

I think part of what we are seeing with the right wing response to this issue is an effect of the shift away from Conservatism to Cult of Personality amongst the Republican party, and they have highlighted Israel as a 'good guy' and are willing to forgive anything they do, just as they are willing to forgive anything their leaders do. It's funny really.

Greenwald sums it up pretty well:

Quote:
John Dean's superb new book, Conservatives Without Conscience (which has been #1 on Amazon for most of the week), analyzes the transformation of American "conservatism" from a political ideology based on the imperatives of limiting government power into a movement predominated by authoritarian impulses and personalities -- a transformation I have also written about extensively. On his book tour, Dean -- who spent his life as such a mainstream Republican that he worked in the highest levels of the Nixon White House -- has been observing that his political views have really not changed over the past 30 years, but he now finds himself accused by pro-Bush conservatives of standing on the "left" side of the political spectrum.

That is because the political spectrum itself has shifted radically, and the movement which now most loudly describes itself as "conservative" bears little resemblance to the political movement of which Dean, for his entire life, considered himself a part. As its leading bloggers vividly illustrate, pro-Bush "conservatism" is a highly authoritarian movement which seeks to vest unlimited and unrestrained power in their Leader, views garden-variety political dissent as blasphemy and treason, and glorifies violence as a justifiable tool to achieve their glorious political ends. The standard language and argumentation of these pro-Bush bloggers reflect those attributes on a daily basis, which is why it is long past time for some journalistic examinations of what is being said and done by pro-Bush blogs.


http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/07/journalists-its-time-for-some-articles.html

It's funny, really, to see classic conservatism change into Authoritarianism right before your eyes.

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:05 am
Actually, "Authoritarian religious right."
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Lash
 
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Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:06 am
It's the longest cyclo and I have discussed anything without the personal rancor. I was just enjoying that, but whatever.
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Cycloptichorn
 
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Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:07 am
You should see the Dominionists cheering this conflict on. Praying for it to escalate, so that the end times will come about. Almost puked on my keyboard yesterday reading supposed 'Christians' praying for bombs to be dropped all over Palestine and Lebanon, so that Iran would be forced to counter-attack.

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
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Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:07 am
Yeah, "whatever" is right; you moron.
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Lash
 
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Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:13 am
Ready for another A2K vacation, CI?
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Cycloptichorn
 
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Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:19 am
Lash wrote:
It's the longest cyclo and I have discussed anything without the personal rancor. I was just enjoying that, but whatever.


True. I think both of us have been doing a good job of not making this a personal issue (I guess as a Jew it is probably more personal for you than me), but on my part I know that I have a greater ability to step back and look at the situation objectively than I do most issues which involve the US domestically.

I'm worried that the fighting is going to continue to escalate... there don't seem to be any real signs that it is going to stop soon, though Israel has refrained from ground warfare in Lebanon to this point. I highly doubt Lebanon is going to agree to the terms that Israel has put forth-

Quote:
Israel says it will only stop its campaign when the abducted troops are freed, Hezbollah withdraws from southern Lebanon and rocket attacks stop.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/17/mideast/index.html

There is about a zero percent chance of that happening.

Part of the problem with Israel's response is the question of Tactics vs. Strategy. Olmert has let himself get caught up in tactics (blowing up parts of Lebanon) without considering strategic questions, ie, 'Is this going to make Israel safer in the long run? Will this get Hezbollah out of south Lebanon?' Of course, as well as being a terrorist group, Hezbollah enjoys a large amount of support amongst the people of Lebanon thanks to their humanitarian work, so it is unlikely that they will ever be gone from Lebanon, because you would literally have to slaughter the population to get rid of them; you can't just kill the current members, because they will recruit more, the money will keep flowing in (the Halawah system makes it impossible to stop the flow of funds to terrorists, yaknow) and Israel will be in the same boat as before.

As long as violence persists on a state level, Hezbollah will only grow stronger in the future.

Cheers, and hope things improve for the area before they get worse

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:26 am
I understand how difficult it can become to admit one is wrong; that's the reason why I apologize when people shows/proves to me I am wrong.

Circumventing truth no matter how much real evidence exists is a tough issue for me to accept. Call that "my weakness."

Lash, FYI, I probably go on more "vacations" than most people, and that includes my brain. I know Cyclo is more of a sensitive human than I am by a dozen yards or more. I guess at my age, I have little tolerance for bs. Even in my younger days, I usually called a spade a spade without much hesitation.

Don't take it too personal; I'm just a grumpy old man.
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okie
 
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Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:53 am
Imposter, did you ever answer my question: Do you think Israel should continue to exist? Cyclops at least did answer, although the answer and ensuing discussion was pretty confusing. In order to have an opinion concerning what is going on that makes any sense here, you must first determine the answer to the above question.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 12:22 pm
Ofcoarse. They only need to provide the Palestinians with equal rights and stop the illegal land grab.
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Cycloptichorn
 
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Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 12:59 pm
My answer was not confusing in the slightest; I absolutely stated, more than once, that I thought Israel should continue to exist as a nation.

Cycloptichorn
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:00 pm
ok, cyclop

You know I'm not Jewish.

But, we did ok anyway. :wink:

Worried about escalation and others throwing in, as well.

Cheers.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:03 pm
Cyclops and Imposter, okay, then we can agree Israel should continue to exist. So I presume they should be able to defend their existence from the attempts of terrorists to eliminate them? Am I making too big of an assumption for you to handle?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:07 pm
No, that's fine, but once again we come back to the point of Tactics versus Strategy.

What is Israel's Strategy for defeating terrorism and securing their country? Noone seems to know, including them. We know what their tactics are, but does Israel really believe what they are doing is going to add to their long-term stability in any way?

Cycloptichorn

ps. Lash, hahah, I thought I had read that you were in the other thread, sorry
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:10 pm
No, it's only the "degree" to which Israel has responded to this conflict. Firepower doesn't necessarily mean they use it wisely.

Most countries in this world including most people would have preferred to have seen some involvement by other countries to intervene before bombing the shet out of Lebanon. People makes peace, not bombs.
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freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:46 pm
Iraq's divided parliament stands united over Israel

16 Jul 2006 20:52:51 GMT
Source: Reuters


(Adds mortar attacks in Basra, paragraph 8)

By Ross Colvin

BAGHDAD, July 16 (Reuters) - Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurdish lawmakers in Iraq's U.S.-backed parliament often fail to see eye to eye, but on Sunday they stood united in their condemnation of Israel's military offensive against Lebanon.

Shi'ite Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki has been pleading with fellow Iraqis to put aside deep sectarian and ethnic divisions of the kind that plunged Lebanon into civil war 30 years ago.

His pleas have gone largely unheeded, but Israel's five-day-old assault on Lebanon that has killed well over 120 people, all but four of them civilians, has evoked strong feelings of solidarity among Iraqis, bridging the sectarian divide, with hostility toward Israel and the United States.

"Support Hassan Nasrallah and stand by his side and you will be closer to the angels in heaven," wrote Hameed Abdullah, a Sunni, in an editorial in al-Mashriq newspaper, referring to the leader of Shi'ite Hizbollah, the target of the Israeli campaign.

The Iraqi media has closely followed developments in the offensive, and Iraqiya state television has flashed breaking news in red script across normal programming, a practice usually reserved for its coverage of the daily carnage in Iraq.

And whether by coincidence or design, communal and insurgent violence appears to have dipped slightly in Iraq since Israel began its campaign, launched after Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight on Wednesday.

Hundreds of supporters of the Shi'ite Fadhila party, a small but locally powerful party in Basra, Iraq's oil export hub, staged a street demonstration, rare in Iraq, in support of the Shi'ite guerrilla group, chanting "Yes, yes to Hizbollah".

After dark, residents heard several dozen explosions from an apparent mortar attack on British bases in the city. A British spokesman confirmed at least one such attack. It was unclear if it was related to pro-Hizbollah sentiment against U.S. allies.

Mahmoud al-Mashhadani, the Sunni speaker of parliament, sent a personal message to his Lebanese counterpart on Sunday, telling him that Iraqis supported Lebanon's efforts to defend its "sovereignty ... against outrageous Israeli aggression".

The Iraqi parliament earlier passed a motion unanimously condemning the Israeli offensive and urging the U.N. Security Council and Group of Eight leaders meeting in St Petersburg to intervene "to stop the ... Israeli criminal aggression".

"COMMON ENEMY"

It followed a statement by Maliki on Saturday, in which the Shi'ite Islamist prime minister, making a rare foray into foreign affairs, denounced Israel and warned of the dangers of escalating tensions in the region.

His Shi'ite-dominated government, installed two months ago in a U.S.-sponsored electoral process, has focused its foreign policy on mending ties with its neighbours, partly to improve security by hindering foreign aid to guerrilla groups.

Other Arabs have been suspicious of Iraq's new rulers, partly because of the dominant U.S. military role in Baghdad. Maliki has been at pains to demonstrate independence and to improve ties with the mostly Sunni Muslim Arab leaders.

Popular Shi'ite-run al-Bayyna newspaper, praising the Hizbollah rocket attacks on northern Israel, said: "About half a million Jews are sitting in underground shelters. The Jihadi missiles were stronger than those of the warplanes of Zion."

In the Shi'ite holy city of Najaf, civil servant Muhsin Hassan, 27, said he was prepared to join the fight against Israel: "If there is any chance of reaching south Lebanon, we'll be ready to go to fight with our brothers in Hizbollah."

Radical Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, in a sermon in Najaf on Friday, had urged Iraqis to stand behind Lebanon to confront a "common enemy". (Reporting by Khaled Farhan in Najaf and Ahmed Rasheed and Mariam Karouny in Baghdad)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/COL658558.htm
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 02:04 pm
TRAGEDY OF ERRORS

July 16, 2006 -- THE violence that scorched the Middle East this time didn't result from a sly Iranian plot. It was the product of emotion, miscalculation, impulsiveness and folly. On all sides.
Here's a sound rule in analyzing problems anywhere between Cairo and Karachi: Never ascribe to a calculated strategy what can be blamed on passionate incompetence.

Another iron rule that applies to this and every Israeli attempt to strike back at Islamist terrorists is that, just when the Israeli Defense Forces really start to hurt the enemy, the world community - including the United States - intervenes to save the terrorists from destruction.

Europeans have more sympathy with Iran's nuclear program than they do with Israel's attempts at self-defense. But, then, the only thing continental Europeans regret about the Holocaust is that they didn't get to finish the job. Even as Europe suffers its own attacks by Islamist terrorists, Europeans defend the selfsame terrorists against Israeli retribution.

Meanwhile, the flare-up that began last week resulted from bad judgment on the part of every organization and state involved - as well as producing some spectacularly bad analysis by our herd-like media.

AS soon as Hezbollah commandos snatched two Israeli soldiers from northern Israeli, we were told Iran was behind it. Utterly wrong. That raid was a Hezbollah-conceived copy-cat operation launched impulsively to piggyback on the Hamas seizure of an Israeli soldier in Gaza the week before. The Iranian government was as surprised as anyone.

Iran was dragged into the mess thereafter. But - while President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad is always delighted to give we-will-bury you speeches - Iran's best interests just now are served by avoiding violent confrontations with Israel while Tehran tries to persuade the world that its nuclear program is strictly for peaceful purposes. Iran's fanatics don't just want to capture or kill six Israeli soldiers. They want to kill 6 million Jews.

The Iranians were blindsided, but had to back their clients (as Germany had to back Austria in 1914).

Because it offers an easy sound-bite explanation, journalists consistently misrepresent Iran's degree of control over Hezbollah, insisting that Tehran pulls all the strings. Just not true. Iran's relationship with Hezbollah is a dark mirror image of our own relationship with Israel: We support Israel, providing funds and weapons, and we can influence Israel. But we don't control Israel. Sometimes Israel surprises us - and not always happily.

Iran's in the same situation with Hezbollah.

Despite drawing vital support from Iran and Syria, Hezbollah has its own goals, tactics and internal dynamics. And since it was allowed to defy U.N. resolutions calling for it to disarm in the wake of Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon, Hezbollah has been able to build the most-effective and best-motivated Arab military, man-for-man.

BUT Hezbollah got this one wrong. Whoever green- lighted the raid on Israel didn't anticipate the ferocity or scale of the Israeli reaction.

Then the Israelis began to miscalculate - reacting impulsively and emotionally themselves. Attacking Hezbollah was fully justified and necessary, but Israel's frustration with the Lebanese government's toleration of terrorists boiled over into folly. Israeli aircraft attacked Beirut's international airport and other targets around the city, doing both Israel and Lebanon's fragile democracy far more harm than good.

Israel hopes to pressure the Lebanese government into taking action against Hezbollah. But Lebanon's leaders can't do that. If they ordered their work-in-progress military to attack and disarm Hezbollah, some Lebanese Armed Forces units would mutiny, others would disintegrate - and any outfits that attempted to take on Hezbollah would be badly and swiftly defeated. And the action would reignite the country's dormant civil war.

After the Israeli strikes in Beirut, Hezbollah then raised the stakes again by raining rockets down on Israeli cities - making it impossible for Israel to limit its offensive. The global media nonetheless portrayed Israel as the aggressor, highlighting Lebanese casualties, rather than the suffering in Israel.

FOR its part, Israel picked the wrong fight by striking Beirut's infrastructure while its deadly enemies sat comfortably in Damascus.

Israel should've hit Syria. It had nothing to lose and far more to gain. No matter what Israel does and no matter how many concessions Israeli governments make, its enemies prove implacable and the "global community" will condemn it.

Returning Gaza to Palestinian control was a noble attempt at making peace. Fanatics made sure it failed. Likewise, withdrawing from southern Lebanon was a risky attempt at compromise and international cooperation. We've seen the rewards. The heart of the problem beats in Damascus, not Beirut. Israel should've gone for it.

As for world opinion, it's saved the terrorists, time and again. Does any reader believe that the United Nations or more than a handful of its member states would act to save Israel? Israel's in a ceaseless fight for its life, and we, at least, have to stop intervening to save its enemies.

THE situation in the Middle East has no good or clear solution. The struggle will continue beyond our lifetimes (unless, of course, the Iranians get their nukes). This is just the latest round, if a particularly ugly one. The ultimate amount of blood that will be shed is unknowable. But we can be certain that Israel's genocidal enemies will always be saved by the bell.
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freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 02:14 pm
McGentrix

Quote:
The ultimate amount of blood that will be shed is unknowable. But we can be certain that Israel's genocidal enemies will always be saved by the bell.


Quote:
For all of the air-attacks on targets in Lebanon, the Israeli Defense Force has not sent in ground troops. If IDF tanks don't thrust across the border in force in the next few days, it will reflect the greatest crisis of will in Israel's history.

Israel is signaling its enemies that it's afraid to risk its soldiers' lives.

nypost


'Besides, that's what the Americans are for!'

Israel should fight until the last American....riight McGentrix ?
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