What's happening with those poor devils at Camp Xray ???

dlowan wrote:

So why has your government not considered them to have the benefits of the Geneva Convention, if they are prisoners of war?

You didn't ask me, but I guess that this reflects a bug in the way the Bush administration thinks about its job, and which it considers one of the features that make it attractive.

Remember that when Bush first came into office, he made a lot of the fact that he was the first president with an MBA, and who had no previous experience with the way things are done in Washington. I distinctly remember one of his weekly addresses, given sometime between January 20 and September 11 2001, where he announced that he would use his business skills to make government more efficient and more responsive. Problem is, if you think of government as a business and of the president as its CEO, you will also see international law as just another annoying impediment on your freedom to decide things -- much like a CEO may think of the tax code and all those tedious micro-regulations CEOs have to deal with. You won't think of it as something that is your job to uphold, and that maybe you should even exceed its literal requirements to create goodwill. Instead, you will tell the government's legal experts that they are now the equivalent of corporate lawyers, that it is now their job to probe for loopholes in international law, then exploit them as best they can.

Strange as it seems, there are some things that traditional Washington insiders do right, and maverick MBAs don't get. More generally, you don't necessarily improve government by pretending it's a business

Spy chiefs to be consulted over Britons freed by US
By Robert Verkaik, Legal Affairs Correspondent
13 January 2005


The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) is to meet senior officers within the security services before deciding whether to bring criminal prosecutions against any of the four British men being released from Guantanamo Bay.

Ken Macdonald, QC, will consider intelligence gathered by both British and US officers that allegedly links the men to Osama bin Laden or the terrorist network, al-Qa'ida.

Moazzam Begg from Birmingham, and Feroz Abbasi, Martin Mubanga and Richard Belmar, all from London, are also expected to face interviews by anti-terrorist officers soon after they are flown home, possibly as early as next week.

The head of the Crown Prosecution Service is expected to advise the police on results of these interviews and any evidence already gathered by the US and British intelligence services before deciding if there is any reasonable prospect of securing convictions in Britain, and whether such prosecutions would be in the public interest.

Criminal and human rights lawyers doubt whether any confessions or other incriminating evidence obtained during the men's detention in Guantanamo Bay could be used in a court in this country because British judges will rule it to have been extracted by oppressive means.

The men's families and their lawyers yesterday called for their ordeal to be ended as soon as possible.

Human rights campaigners have been outraged at the treatment of the detainees in the US naval base in Cuba.

Amnesty International has called Camp Delta a "major human-rights scandal" and an "icon of lawlessness". Both Amnesty and the lobby group Guantanamo Human Rights Commission described the release as "long overdue".

But the US security services believe the British men still pose a security threat and have asked the Government to "manage" that alleged risk.

Senior US security officials allege at least two of the four suspects learnt bomb-making and assassination skills at al-Qa'ida camps in Afghanistan and that Mr Abbasi had met Osama bin Laden three times and volunteered for suicide missions.

Before Mr Begg left Britain to travel to Afghanistan in 2001, MI5 officers had kept his Birmingham bookshop, which traded in religious texts, under close observation.

During hearings at the Special Immigration Appeal Commission (SIAC), in London, it emerged that Mr Begg had also been linked by MI5 with at least one foreign terror suspect now being held in Belmarsh under emergency legislation rushed through Parliament in the aftermath of 11 September.

But the SIAC documents show that at least part of that investigation was seriously flawed as intelligence gathered during the MI5 operation in 2000 had wrongly led to an allegation that weapons had been found there. The judges ruled that the "Secretary of State was in error" because no weapons were ever found at Mr Begg's bookshop.

A spokeswoman for the CPS said that it was not unusual for senior CPS officers to meet officers from the security services when they had been asked to advise on the strength of evidence gathered by MI5 or MI6.

dlowan wrote:

As for the torture charges being baseless, McGentrix, as I understand it, the Bush government has admitted that the "rules" about what was acceptable to do to prisoners were changed to make permissible behaviour that would, seconds before, have been called torture - and which the US would most certainly (quite rightly) CALL torture if done to your troops.

Sorry - if it was torture and unacceptable on Monday, it still is on Tuesday, I believe - Bush and co notwithstanding.

I think the torture case is well- supported.

I'm sorry, but you do not get to believe that.

If you "have no reason to believe, or not believe, that Mr Habib is a war criminal", then you have no reason to believe or not believe that Mr. Habib was tortured.

I mean, unless you have some form of omniscience not granted to ordinary mortals which allows you to know that he has been tortured without knowing a single fact?

Remember that when Bush first came into office, he made a lot of the fact that he was the first president with an MBA, and who had no previous experience with the way things are done in Washington. I distinctly remember one of his weekly addresses, given sometime between January 20 and September 11 2001, where he announced that he would use his business skills to make government more efficient and more responsive. Problem is, if you think of government as a business and of the president as its CEO, you will also see international law as just another annoying impediment on your freedom to decide things -- much like a CEO may think of the tax code and all those tedious micro-regulations CEOs have to deal with. You won't think of it as something that is your job to uphold, and that maybe you should even exceed its literal requirements to create goodwill. Instead, you will tell the government's legal experts that they are now the equivalent of corporate lawyers, that it is now their job to probe for loopholes in international law, then exploit them as best they can.

Strange as it seems, there are some things that traditional Washington insiders do right, and maverick MBAs don't get. More generally, you don't necessarily improve government by pretending it's a business.

Martin Lederman, a former Justice Department lawyer who left the department in 2002, said in an interview on Wednesday that he believed that the administration had "always wanted to leave a loophole where the C.I.A. could engage in actions just up to the line of torture."

The administration has said almost nothing about the C.I.A. operation to imprison and question terror suspects designated as high-value detainees, even as it has expressed disgust about abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Senior officials have sought in recent public statements to emphasize that the government will continue to abide by federal laws that prohibit torture.

At his confirmation hearing last week on his nomination to be attorney general, Alberto R. Gonzales said he found torture abhorrent.

Mass suicide bid at Guantanamo
By Robert Verkaik and Terri Judd
25 January 2005


Twenty-three inmates at the US detention facility in Guantanamo Bay staged a mass suicide attempt in 2003 by trying to hang or strangle themselves.

US military confirmation of the mass suicides came yesterday as the families of four Britons detained without charge for three years by the US authorities waited for their loved ones to arrive home from the prison on Cuba. The four will be arrested by anti-terrorist police officers as soon as they are released from American custody.

The US Southern Command yesterday admitted that, between 18 and 26 August 2003, the detainees tried to hang or strangle themselves with pieces of clothing and other items in their cells. However they played down the incidents, saying that one - on 22 August - was "a coordinated effort to disrupt camp operations and challenge a new group of security guards from the just-completed unit rotation".

The four Britons will be taken to Paddington Green police station in west London where they will be questioned under Britain's anti-terrorism laws.

The families of Moazzam Begg, 37, from Birmingham, and Feroz Abbasi, 24, Martin Mubanga, 32, and Richard Belmar, 25, from London, have been told that the men will arrive by RAF aircraft this afternoon. They will then be transferred to Paddington Green high-security police station where they will be fingerprinted and, for the first time since their detention, allowed access to lawyers.

But any family reunions will be delayed until tomorrow morning when the police will grant "supervised" visits to individual family members.

Under the Terrorism Act 2000 the Metropolitan police can hold the men for up to 14 days without charge but must continuously review the terms of their detention.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir John Stevens, will consider any evidence, including information obtained during police interviews, that might support charges against any of the men. He must then decide to either order the men's release or send a police file to the Crown Prosecution Service where senior lawyers will advise on the prospect of a successful conviction in the public interest.

Louise Christian, the lawyer representing the families of Mr Abbasi and Mr Mubanga, said that she would be making representations to the police to allow her to see the two men as soon as possible.

She said: "We now know that during their three-year detention they have been tortured and deprived of their human rights. To continue to detain them in this country is oppressive."

The men could be free within 24 hours if the police follow the same course they did with the first five Britons, who were flown home from Guantanamo Bay in March last year.

But negotiations over the release of the remaining Britons are thought to have been more difficult because of the Americans' insistence that any security risk that the men might pose must be "properly managed."

A Foreign Office spokesman confirmed all four men would be flying home together but declined to be drawn on whether they faced prosecution or surveillance in this country.

During their detention the men have been repeatedly interrogated by MI5 officers as well as American officials while in Guantanamo Bay.

Criminal and human rights lawyers doubt whether any confessions - or other incriminating evidence obtained during the men's detention in Guantanamo Bay - could be used in a court in this country.

The Director of Public Prosecutions, Ken Macdonald QC, is expected to advise Sir John Stevens on the results of police interviews and any evidence already gathered by the US and British intelligence.

Last night, Mr Begg's father, Azmat Begg, insisted he was neither excited, nor overjoyed, simply apprehensive that the man he sees tomorrow will be the same son he last saw more than three years ago.

"The family are very much delighted and excited, he said.

"I have got my own reservations. I just want to see him first and decide what feelings are in my head, in my mind," the former bank manager said, adding that he feared for his son's mental state: "My feelings are concerned. I am not happy or excited, nor am I depressed. I am just in a level mood. Moazzam was in solitary confinement for three years. They put in a window that was just eight inches by four inches. That makes me very sad. I know for sure that people in those conditions for only a few months go out of their minds."

Mr Begg is expecting to travel to London today, possibly accompanied by local police. The family has excitedly been discussing who will make that momentous trip. Whether Moazzam's wife Sally and their four children, including the youngest, Ibrahim, who has never seen his father, will also also make the journey.

"I don't know when I am actually going to see him. My solicitor told me he would be arrested when he landed - but we are hopeful they will not press any charges against him," said Mr Begg.

Mr Begg continued: "It is difficult to know what he will want after so long. He did miss the food as he mentioned it in his letters. I think he will want some fish and chips. That was his favourite."

What do you want to bet the conditions of their release are dependent, first and formost, upon NOT BREATHING A WORD ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW AND WHAT WAS DONE TO THEM.

U.S. Department of Defense
Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)
News Release

IMMEDIATE RELEASE No. 070-05 January 25, 2005
Transfer of British Detainees Complete

The Department of Defense announced today that it transferred four British detainees from U.S. facilities in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (GTMO) to the custody of the United Kingdom.



The decision to transfer or release a detainee is based on many factors, including whether the detainee poses a continued threat to the United States or its allies and whether he is of further intelligence value. The decision to transfer these detainees was made after extensive discussions between the two governments.



During these discussions, the U.K. government requested their transfer and accepted responsibility for these detainees. It has assured the U.S. government that the detainees will not pose a continuing security threat to the United States or its allies. The Department of Defense has strong confidence in the U.K.'s commitment and ability to fulfill this responsibility.



Because of operational and security considerations, no further details regarding the movement can be provided. During the course of the War on Terrorism, the Department of Defense expects that there will be other transfers or releases of detainees.



To date, 207 detainees have departed GTMO - 146 for release, and 61 transferred to the control of other governments (29 to Pakistan, five to Morocco, four to France, seven to Russia, four to Saudi Arabia, one to Spain, one to Sweden, nine to the United Kingdom and one to Kuwait). As a result of today's transfer, there are now approximately 545 detainees at GTMO.

Guantanamo four flying back to UK

The last four British men held as terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay are on their way back to the UK, after almost three years in US custody.
The men, one from Birmingham and three from London, were held after the US accused them of having al-Qaeda links.

Moazzam Begg, Martin Mubanga, Richard Belmar and Feroz Abbasi are expected to be questioned under UK anti-terror laws after their return to RAF Northolt.

The US agreed the men could be released after "complex" talks with the UK.

Britain has provided "security guarantees" to Washington in relation to the men, who were held without trial, but has not said what they include.

The men are being brought back on board an RAF C-17 plane, accompanied by Metropolitan Police officers, including anti-terrorism officers.

Two independent observers are also on the plane, one of them from the Muslim community.

Families' 'anguish'

Amnesty International has welcomed the expected "long overdue" return of Mr Begg, from Birmingham, and the other detainees, from London.

Five other British detainees were freed from Guantanamo last year and were released without charge after questioning by police in the UK.

Some later said they had been hooded, shackled to the floor in painful stress positions and witnessed beatings and other abuse during their time at Guantanamo.

Muslim leaders met Home Office Minister Hazel Blears on Monday to call for the men returning to the UK on Tuesday to be given "urgent medical attention" upon their release.


Secretary general Iqbal Sacranie told BBC News he understood the men would be examined medically to establish whether they were in a fit state to be questioned.

Insisting they should be released soon, Mr Sacranie said: "What we don't want to do is to apply torture upon torture. They have already been through a lot of suffering."

Lawyers for the four have urged the police to release them immediately.

Louise Christian, who represents Mr Abbasi and Mr Mubanga, believes they should not be arrested.

"It would be a violation of the Human Rights Act to prolong their ordeal," she said.


Announcing their impending release on 11 January, UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said the police and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) would decide if they would face prosecution.

BBC Home Affairs Correspondent Danny Shaw said it was expected the men would be arrested by police and questioned when they arrive back in the UK.

It is understood police already had "lengthy dossiers" on each of the men compiled by agents from the UK's security service MI5 who had visited the men nine times at Guantanamo, he said.

He said some of the alleged evidence "may well have been obtained in circumstances not acceptable in courts here, perhaps under duress or perhaps from the battlefields in Afghanistan and so on".
Washington has alleged that all four men trained at camps run by al-Qaeda.

The United States has released about 200 of nearly 800 suspected al-Qaeda and Taleban prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay.

Most of them were captured during the war in Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002.

Prostitute used in Habib torture: lawyer
By Tamara McLean
January 27, 2005

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Mamdouh Habib was the victim of atrocities fit for a concentration camp, including being tied to the ground while a prostitute menstruated on him, his lawyer said yesterday.

Interrogators at the US prison camp at Guantanamo Bay had also told the Sydney man they had killed his family and superimposed animal heads on photos of his wife and children, Steven Hopper said.

At an Australia Day forum in Sydney, Mr Hopper gave more details of atrocities allegedly endured by his client while held at the US base in Cuba.

The Federal Government said it was aware of similar allegations of torture made by former British detainees at Guantanamo Bay but it was the first time the Government had heard the claims involving Mr Habib.

Mr Habib is due back in Sydney within a fortnight after the US said it would release him without charge despite holding him for more than three years on suspicion he knew about the September 11 attacks and had trained with al-Qaeda.

Mr Hopper said yesterday: "The Americans used prostitutes as tools in their interrogations. They'd say to detainees 'If you co-operate with us, we'll let you at this woman for the night'. And if they wouldn't agree they'd use them in other ways."

He said detainees held at the base with Mr Habib reported that a prostitute was told to stand over him and menstruate on him.

"[We believe] one of the prostitutes stood over him naked while he was strapped to the floor and menstruated on him," he said.

Mr Hopper said officials at the base also defaced photos of Mr Habib's wife, Maha, and their four children.

"The Americans in their wisdom have taken the heads off the pictures, enlarged them and superimposed them with the heads of animals and then strung them up all over the walls of the interrogation room," he said.

"As they sat there talking to Mamdouh asking him about his terrorist activities, they held up a picture of Maha and said, 'It's a shame we had to kill your family, it's a shame you will never see these people again'."

He said Mr Habib was also subjected to the same interrogation techniques used on prisoners at the infamous Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"Make no doubt about it, Guantanamo Bay wasn't a prisoner-of-war camp," Mr Hopper said. "It was a facility designed to interrogate people. It was nothing more than a vulgar concentration camp and it has marked a new high in the rise of American fascism."

Mr Habib was detained in Pakistan in late 2001 and sent to Egypt before being flown to Guantanamo Bay in 2002.

Mr Hopper also detailed abuses against Mr Habib while in Egypt, saying he was suspended from the ceiling with only an electrified barrel to stand on.

"He would stand and get a shock or hang painfully by his arms until he'd collapse," he said.

He was blindfolded and locked in rooms that were flooded with water and charged with electricity, Mr Hopper said.

"On other occasions they used German shepherd guard dogs and [interrogators] told him they train dogs to sexually assault people," the lawyer said.

"Mamdouh has said he wasn't sexually assaulted by these dogs but really we don't know.

"Who would admit to it, particularly an Arab Muslim male?"

The forum Mr Hopper spoke at focused on Australia's political relationship with the US.

A spokesman for the Attorney-General, Philip Ruddock, said last night that it was the first time the Government had heard the claims involving Mr Habib.

"We haven't heard those sorts of allegations from Mr Habib but we're aware that allegations of that nature were made by other detainees released last year," Mr Ruddock's spokesman said.

"But if he's got any evidence to support those sorts of claims we'd pass them on."

AAP

Is this really the standard we should apply to al Qaeda detainees? Many of Bush's critics think so.

Interrogators employ psychological "stress techniques" such as the good cop/bad cop routine seen on countless TV shows. Other techniques that Human Rights Watch would like to outlaw involve keeping detainees up past their bedtime, making them stand for long periods and yelling at them -- no worse than the treatment meted out to recruits in boot camp.

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Declarations and Reservations
(Unless otherwise indicated, the declarations and reservations were made
upon ratification, accession or succession.)
(Signatories 74, Parties 136)

As of 23 April 2004

[...]

"The United States declares, pursuant to article 21, paragraph 1, of the Convention, that it recognizes the competence of the Committee against Torture to receive and consider communications to the effect that a State Party claims that another State Party is not fulfilling its obligations under the Convention. It is the understanding of the United States that, pursuant to the above-mentioned article, such communications shall be accepted and processed only if they come from a State Party which has made a similar declaration."