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What's happening with those poor devils at Camp Xray ???

 
 
wolf
 
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 08:46 am
I often get startled at the thought of what those innocent Afghani's are still enduring in the US' military camps. What the hell are they imprisoned for? What are they experiencing? Who are they anyway? The fact that some have tried to kill themselves - unsuccesfully - gives us an idea of the horrendous climate they must find themselves in. Like animals they were transported, like animals they must now live.

Lab-rats, in my opinion. Maybe they can serve as suicide bombers.

Dozens of those are now suddenly popping up in Tchetchenya, Saudi-Arabia, and Morocco - quickly designated as Al Qaida people by the rogue US government.

Maybe the CampXray-prisoners have come up handy after all.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 11:25 am
The Camp XRay did not precede to terror attacks: the opposite thing is correct. These people are being held in order to obtain from them information on the Al Qaeda and Taliban organizations. It is an interrogation facility intended to collect intelligence information about the enemy. There is nothing wrong about it.
The people that are being found non-aligned with any of the mentioned terror organizations are being released and repatriated.
I do not remember the link, but some of them claimed after having returned home that the prisoners are not being tortured. Conditions in the camp surely differ from these in the five stars Hilton, but it can hardly be supposed that the same Afghan nationals at home had anything better. And they could easily avoid staying in Guantanamo: just by not being Taliban or Al Qaeda militants. They made their choice, now they pay for it. And if they later pop somewhere else and get involved in terror activities, I wish them to be killed like rabid dogs.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 11:27 am
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 11:47 am
steissd wrote:
Conditions in the camp surely differ from these in the five stars Hilton, but it can hardly be supposed that the same Afghan nationals at home had anything better. And they could easily avoid staying in Guantanamo: just by not being Taliban or Al Qaeda militants. They made their choice, now they pay for it.


Obviously some made there choice of being born in the wrong country: even officials declared a handful (or some more? who knows?) for totally innocent.

Quote:
Said Abaseen is a taxi driver from the Afghan capital, Kabul.

He set out on an ordinary day's work last July - and ended up in Cuba, 15,000 kilometres (9,300 miles) from home.

He was held at Guantanamo Bay for nine months, before being classified as of low intelligence value and sent back to Kabul in March - part of the first substantial group to be set free.

He was never charged and still does not know why he was arrested.

Nobody knows exactly who is being held, but the US Government says there are roughly 660 people currently detained at Guantanamo Bay, from over 40 countries.

Two weeks ago, US defence department officials announced that they had three children between the ages of 13 and 15 detained at Guantanamo.
...
Last month, the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, wrote a strongly worded letter to Donald Rumsfeld, deploring the imprisonment of children and old people, and saying that eight governments friendly to the US had complained about the holding of their citizens.

Guantanamo, he said, could undermine US efforts to sustain international approval for its foreign policy.
Legal limbo of Guantanamo's prisoners
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 12:07 pm
The ones proved being innocent were released. They were detained erroneously (maybe, some of their personal enemies pointed on them as on Taliban fighters). When the things became clear, they went home.
By the way the fact of being of low intelligence value does not indicate that this man was not involved in the fighting. He may not know anything, therefore he is of no value for interrogators.
Children of age 13-15 are quite able to use firearms, especially if these are Afghan kids. No one in Afghanistan considers 13-15-year-old boy a minor: not only he may be a terror fighter, he also may already be married and have kids of his own. I fought there, and I know what am I talking about.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 12:21 pm
Are you saying that being married and having kids is a reason to be in this camp?
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 12:25 pm
No. You understand well what did I mean: criteria of attributing someone to minors in Afghanistan and in Europe differ. They should be brought to the camp if they were enemy's militants, and they allegedly were. If they were not, and their arrest was erroneous, then they will be released and repatriated.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 12:30 pm
Normally, and according to the Geneva Convention - which you certainly know as a former Russian officer - 'enemy's militant' are brought to POW-camps.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 12:42 pm
They were not soldiers of any army, they did not bear any insignia that guerilla fighters have to bear according to the same conventions; neither they were innocent civilians, since they rendered armed resistance. The only definition they comply with is terrorists. And the latter in wartime can be merely killed without much formalities. So, they can be thankful to the American authorities that the latter did not order to execute them immediately after having captured them with weapons in their hands.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 12:48 pm
God bless America!
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 01:29 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
God bless America!

Completely agree. Without any irony, BTW.
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wolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 05:23 pm
Steissd, you are an amazingly hardboiled person. I'm almost in a lack of words to express my resentment towards you. This detainment of hundreds of Afghan people is the most horrendous violation of civil rights I've ever encountered.

Your innuendo have no effect on me. There is no proof whatsoever that any of those 660 guys - nor their leaders for that matter - had ANY involvement in the attacks of September the 11th. The American audience was forced to believe in the bin Laden fairy tales, in the bad Taleban tales etc etc, and their lack of education and gullibilty made them swallow it like a cheap B-movie. Those bad, bad bearded muslims, oh my. Look what they did to the WTC and the Pentagon, oh my.

Proof? Non existant. There was not one Afghani amongst the so-called hijackers. In reality, the truth is even worse: the FBI doesn't even know who the hijackers were, as their passports "must have been stolen".

On what basis are these hundreds of innocent men being detained and, no doubt, tortured? On the basis of the sick, wretched moral prerogatives of inhuman subjects like yourself? When will they be released? Who speaks for their families?

These men are not even illegal combattants. It's the US attack against Afghanistan that was illegal. An attack which, o surprise, did not even lead to the captivity of this evil bin Laden guy who has more connections to the Bush family than to those 600 poor souls.

Kidnapped, blindfolded in Kabul, flown blindfolded and attached horizontally in military planes, and still blindfolded without any human rights -ANY- these farmers serve some dark purpose of US intelligence.

What information do you think they would be able to give? The whereabouts of bin Laden? (roll laughing tape) The date of future terrorist attacks? (roll laughing tape)

Please, do not insult your and certainly not my intellect. You and I well know who the real terrorists on this wretched planet are. Shame on you.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 12:11 pm
Well, the US are not alone:

Quote:
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 01:45 pm
Wolf wrote:
The American audience was forced to believe in the bin Laden fairy tales, in the bad Taleban tales etc etc

Hmm, does this mean that bin Laden has never existed in real life, and 9/11 was a Hollywood movie? And Taliban regime was a figment of imagination of some anti-Utopian writers?
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 01:49 pm
Wolf wrote:
There is no proof whatsoever that any of those 660 guys - nor their leaders for that matter - had ANY involvement in the attacks of September the 11th. [...]On what basis are these hundreds of innocent men being detained and, no doubt , tortured?

And where are the proofs of their being tortured? Or it is the U.S. alone is the side that is obliged to bring firm proofs for every sneeze of any Washington D.C. official, and its enemies need no proofs for defaming it?
Wolf wrote:
I'm almost in a lack of words to express my resentment towards you.

You should better keep your resentment to use it toward the people that really deserve it: for example, the Islamic terrorists.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 01:51 pm
By the way, the deported Palestinian was set free in Gaza strip. He was deported to break his ties with the terror groups. This may help him to survive, by the way, terrorists tend to die of causes far from being natural ones, like age or diseases.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 10:07 am
steissd wrote:
They were not soldiers of any army, they did not bear any insignia that guerilla fighters have to bear according to the same conventions;

The Geneva Conventions didn't know about guerrillia warfare, and the definition of the term "soldier" in international law has evolved since they were written. According to Tori Clarke, America's assistant secretary of defense, you're a soldier if you're part of the enemy's command-and-control structure. Lack of insignia doesn't make you a non-soldier. Given that this is the official position of the Bush administration, it follows that the administration is violating its own rules in Camp X-ray.

steissd wrote:
neither they were innocent civilians, since they rendered armed resistance. The only definition they comply with is terrorists.

How do you know? These guys have yet to be accused of any crime, so no judge has even tried to find that out yet!

steissd wrote:
And the latter in wartime can be merely killed without much formalities.

If these guys are no soldiers as you say, how can America be at war with them? Surely America didn't declare war on Afghanistan.

steissd wrote:
So, they can be thankful to the American authorities that the latter did not order to execute them immediately after having captured them with weapons in their hands.


The last time I've seen gratefulness for imprisonment without a trial being expected from the prisoners was when I read the brainwashing scene toward the end of George Orwell's "1984". Are you saying this is the appropriate standard against which to judge the so-called "land of the free"?

puzzled

-- Thomas
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 01:35 pm
Quote:
This detainment of hundreds of Afghan people is the most horrendous violation of civil rights I've ever encountered.

What specific rights are being violated and how?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 02:24 pm
E.g. as descriped in the "Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment
Adopted by General Assemblyresolution 43/173 of 9 December 1988".
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 02:58 pm
We imprison people because we can.
Nobody stops it from happening, therefore it will continue to happen.

Moral or not, right or wrong, with "adequate" reason or not, holding people without a charge and without a trial is just another thing the U.S. is capable of doing these days.



----------
"We can call anyone we want a terrorist, just by being afraid of the unknown."
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