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Is flag-waving stupid and immature?

 
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 07:15 am
Thanks for the research, kitchenpete.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 01:11 pm
My apologies. I didn't notice which forum the question was asked. Embarrassed
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 01:15 pm
McTag wrote:
SierraSong wrote:
Dadpad - Students in Sweden aren't allowed to display the Swedish flag. A student who recently arrived at school with a tiny Swedish flag pinned to a backpack was reprimanded and told it was forbidden because it might be seen as offensive to the immigrant population.

That seems odd at first (and is no doubt unthinkable in America etc) but something similar had happened here before. Some schools and some public institutions have decided to ban the overt use of our national flag because of its misuses and its association with right-wing groups and their sentiments.

Same in Holland. Skinheads and gabbas had started to wear a small Dutch flag sewed into their jacket or bag, especially in the big cities. For some it was an actual political expression of "resistance" against their multicultural environs (and schoolmates), for others (many of the gabbas) just a way to be tough or cool or to, you know, basically flick their middle finger. To say, "dont even think about f*cking with us". Lots of clashing at high schools going on between sets of teen machismos, the young white males staking out its claim of terrain this way. Sure their counterparts would provocatively sew in the Moroccan star, or perhaps some Islamic green, I dunno.

More to do with teen boys ganging up (in the fifties in Amsterdam, it was "Dijkers" versus "Pleiners", different neighbourhoods) than with a collective sense of nation, though definitely seared through with ethnic resentments, Dutch vs Moroccans vs Surinamese. Volatile stuff to have to keep in check as a high school board, so there was serious concern about how to deal with it - dont remember whether there were any actual bans (Naj, you know?). (Dutch arent too big on dress codes).

Lonsdale, thats the other big thing - clothing of the brand Lonsdale, massively used by skins and gabba-types to identify themselves with their clan. Has acquired a definite extreme-right connotation (to true believers, the "nsda" in Lonsdale is short for NSDAP, the abbreviation of Hitler's Nazi party), though many Lonsdale wearers are not political at all.

Lonsdale clothing is being banned now in places, I think, in Germany and/or Holland, despite the brand itself desperately trying to rebrand itself away from the connotation, producing clothing with the brand name in many colours, sponsoring anti-racist events etc. But what can they do? Just remember how far-right skinheads in the past embraced the whole ska scene, never mind that many of the musicians are black.

The confusions of identity...
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 01:24 pm
I'm not a flag waver, but in the weeks after 9/11 I was heartened by the number of people displaying the Stars & Stripes. I felt a sense of community.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 02:13 am
Sorry if I tread heavily on a few corns here, but I was struck by the TV pictures post 9/11 of office workers going back to work carrying little American flags to put in their reclaimed offices and on their desks.

I thought, how weird.

We are fairly used to bombs in Britain over the years, due to the prolonged IRA campaign, and I don't think ever responded with flags in quite that way.
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Ashers
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 05:41 am
Interesting to note, what with the soccer craze some of us will see in the coming month, the kind of support (from club fans) or lack thereof some people will show. What's interesting is the range of this support though, some will simply feel general apathy towards the tournament/countries involvement, others and they're a sizeable chunk will actually resent, England's involvement, for instance.

I'm talking about people who are big football fans at club level but resentful at national level. The tribal, hatred that exists between some supporters across a single country leads them to view going from hatred of opposition players on a saturday league game to cheering for the opener of the World Cup as hypocritical and you have to say, given their extreme position, it makes sense. I can't help but think they're soccer supporters for all the wrong reasons though, wanting to have someone or some group to pour distain on, to aim all your bitterness at. Kind of sad I guess, a real shame. What I find fascinating is the way in which different people get caught up, to differing degrees, in support for anything or anyone in soccer or sports in general, clubs, national teams but also even just certain players. Is it a positive re-enforcement of something (a belonging to a group) or a negative backlash at something (a legitimate source to aim general anger and frustrations)? Do the two interlink?

As for flags in general, I do take the view of it being highly unnecessary at times, but that's for me, I have no problem with others doing it. From my own point of view, any belief or gratitude for being born in a country I may perceive as "great" IS most definitely taken as a given but if I was going to actually DO something, even if flying a flag takes little effort it would be more along the lines of a fierce duty to maintain/improve said "greatness" rather than re-enforce it for fear of heading down a slippery slope of indifference.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 06:19 am
Re post 9/11, it never would have occurred to me to go out and buy a flag. Actually, I have never owned one.

But as someone who is from that region in NY, I did feel a great deal of pride in how everyone responded. But IF there were a flag for NYC, I would not have displayed it, or bought it.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 06:37 am
McTag wrote:
Sorry if I tread heavily on a few corns here, but I was struck by the TV pictures post 9/11 of office workers going back to work carrying little American flags to put in their reclaimed offices and on their desks.

I thought, how weird.

We are fairly used to bombs in Britain over the years, due to the prolonged IRA campaign, and I don't think ever responded with flags in quite that way.


I think that's a bit tough.

I don't know that the UK has had an episode quite like that ever......though I imagine during the blitz that there may well have been as many casualties in a night? However, that was at least during a declared war.
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 07:11 am
dlowan wrote:
McTag wrote:

I thought, how weird.


I think that's a bit tough.



I dont think its a bit tough at all.

You have a perspective mctag, its an intereting one. I used to find the nationalistic fervor of some americans a little annoying but have tempered my attidude somewhat.

I am sure they find my "God Country= Australia" passion the same.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 07:49 am
dadpad wrote:
dlowan wrote:
McTag wrote:

I thought, how weird.


I think that's a bit tough.



I dont think its a bit tough at all.

You have a perspective mctag, its an intereting one. I used to find the nationalistic fervor of some americans a little annoying but have tempered my attidude somewhat.

I am sure they find my "God Country= Australia" passion the same.


Thank you. I will try to develop this theme a bit further when I have been up to the repair shop with my TV. Smile
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 08:00 am
dadpad wrote:
dlowan wrote:
McTag wrote:

I thought, how weird.


I think that's a bit tough.



I dont think its a bit tough at all.

You have a perspective mctag, its an intereting one. I used to find the nationalistic fervor of some americans a little annoying but have tempered my attidude somewhat.

I am sure they find my "God Country= Australia" passion the same.



You have a ""God Country= Australia" passion"????!!!!!

Then you're barking mad!


That's more diagnostic in Oz than it is in the US...context makes a difference!
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 08:07 am
My flag is bigger than your flag . . .
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 08:34 am
my passion is bigger than your passion.

hey wabbit wana see my passion. you can touch it n ya wanna are ya game?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 08:38 am
dadpad wrote:
my passion is bigger than your passion.

hey wabbit wana see my passion. you can touch it n ya wanna are ya game?




My brain is bigger than his flag and your passion.



And put that passion back where it belongs.
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 08:59 am
dlowan wrote:
dadpad wrote:
my passion is bigger than your passion.

hey wabbit wana see my passion. you can touch it n ya wanna are ya game?




My brain is bigger than his flag and your passion.



And put that passion back where it belongs.


I have heard it said the brain is the largest erogenouse zone.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 09:06 am
dadpad said:

Quote:
I have heard it said the brain is the largest erogenouse zone.


Makes a great deal of sense for women, but I don't believe it about men.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 09:33 am
You would rather talk about erogenous zones than my TV repair? Takes all kinds Rolling Eyes

Anyway....
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 09:37 am
Great thread!

Here's John Prine, from a song he wrote when sporting a US flag decal (or not) tended to suggest where you stood on the war in Vietnam:

But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reasons for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 09:40 am
Setanta wrote:
My flag is bigger than your flag . . .

If only you didn't have this peculiar way of illuminating it when you can't find it:
    And the rockets' red glare The bombs bursting in air Affirmed through the night That our flag was still there. Oh say does that star- Sprangled banner yet wave O'er the land of the free and the hoooome of the braaaave?

Twenty bucks if you sing that on the market in Baghdad.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 09:44 am
You have an unreal notion of the value of twenty bucks . . .
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