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Global Warming vs. Terrorism

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jul, 2006 06:50 pm
mysteryman wrote:
teenyboone wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Advocate wrote:
How can the wells keep the water warm?

Drilling in ANWAR may result in terrible damage to the ecosystem. Moreover, the oil there, were it to provide all our needs, would last only two weeks.


So you think we should not do something because of what MIGHT happen?

Lets examine that for a minute.
We shouldnt have gone to war in WW2 because we MIGHT lose some people.

We shouldnt have designed and built airplanes because they MIGHT crash.

You cannot live your life afraid of what MIGHT happen,thats living your life afraid.

And even if the oil in ANWAR only did provide 2 weeks (a figure that many people dispute,BTW), thats 2 weeks that we dont have to buy foreign oil.
The less foreign oil we have to buy,the better off we are.

We have the oil shale in Utah,Wyoming and Colorado that can provide millions of barrels of oil,we have oil reserves in the Gulf that are not being exploited,etc.

So,to go back to my analogy,we still need to keep the bathtub full somehow,while we find alternative fuels.

Why drill at all, when you can use alternative methods, such as corn and ethanol? Just an alternative!


I agree,those are alternatives,and good ones.
But,neither of them is produced in sufficient quantities right now to replace oil as a fuel source.
So,until they are,how are you gonna fill the bathtub?


What is the projection? 6 years for Anwar to produce one drop of oil if they agreed to drilling today?

Yeah.. Anwar will produce in sufficient quantities right now as opposed to ethanol.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 09:16 am
I think we should always err on the side of ecological preservation and caution.

However, read the MArch-April edition of Harvard Magazine which shows that this is not how decisions are made.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 09:53 am
Advocate wrote:
How can the wells keep the water warm?

Drilling in ANWAR may result in terrible damage to the ecosystem. Moreover, the oil there, were it to provide all our needs, would last only two weeks.

Wrong. Badly wrong. Where do you get your statistics?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 10:12 am
In 1998, the U.S. Geological Survey estimated that between 5.7 and 16.0 billion barrels of oil were available. The U.S. consumes somewhere between 14 and 20 million barrels of oil a day.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 10:15 am
In full production, approximately 10 billion barrels could provide all of our oil demand for approximately a year and a half, not two weeks. Of course, this would not happen. It would only be a piece of the puzzle, so ANWR could be an important piece of the puzzle for 20 or 30 years or more.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 10:16 am
2 years worth maybe, not 2 weeks.

But it still doesn't make it available now or quicker than ethanol. Plus ethanol is renewable.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 12:15 pm
Parados, I am sure you are aware the economics of ethanol is questionable and controversial.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 12:52 pm
There is a difference of opinion on how much oil there is in ANWR. One states that, by 2020, it would reduce our imports from 62% to 60% of our needs.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/646493/posts
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 12:55 pm
FreeDuck wrote:

...As of now, knock on wood, there have been no terrorist attacks using WMD. Natural disasters appear to be just as, if not more, deadly than terrorist attacks.

So, if something hasn't happened yet, the danger must be minor? Part of the reason it hasn't happened yet is that the nuclear/bioweapon club is still small. As technology brings these weapons into the hands of less and less sophisticated entities, that will change.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 01:52 pm
Advocate wrote:
There is a difference of opinion on how much oil there is in ANWR. One states that, by 2020, it would reduce our imports from 62% to 60% of our needs.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/646493/posts

Nobody can know until you drill the reservoirs out and start producing. The only thing we know is that geological environments have been identified that are favorable to oil occurrence. Producing 60 to 65% of our needs is not a realistic projection in my view. I would estimate more in the range of maybe 10 to 20% absolute max., which of course is very, very significant and can greatly affect price and total supply picture. Even 5% would be very significant.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 01:54 pm
okie wrote:
Parados, I am sure you are aware the economics of ethanol is questionable and controversial.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html


Glad to see you using out of date info there okie.. 2001 before the latest reductions in ethanol production requirements.

The average vehicle traveling 10,000 miles would require 852 gallons of ethanol?
11 mpg? C'mon.. The US vehicle fleet averages 11mpg? Do you believe that one okie? I don't.

The study uses BTUs as its comparison. Do you get all your electricity produced from fuel oil? I know I don't. In fact it's a very small amount from that source. I know of an ethanol plant combined with a coal electric plant. The excess heat from the coal plant is used to produce ethanol rather than wasted as it once was. The study is out of date and flat out wrong in its basis of comparison.

Farmers don't burn ethanol because the majority of farm equipment isn't capable of using ethanol. Most farm equipment is diesel not gasoline. You can't use ethanol in a diesel. You can use biodiesel which comes mainly from soybeans. (Something your study fails to mention.)
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 01:55 pm
okie wrote:
Advocate wrote:
There is a difference of opinion on how much oil there is in ANWR. One states that, by 2020, it would reduce our imports from 62% to 60% of our needs.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/646493/posts

Nobody can know until you drill the reservoirs out and start producing. The only thing we know is that geological environments have been identified that are favorable to oil occurrence. Producing 60 to 65% of our needs is not a realistic projection in my view. I would estimate more in the range of maybe 10 to 20% absolute max., which of course is very, very significant and can greatly affect price and total supply picture. Even 5% would be very significant.


reducing from 62 to 60 means it would produce 2% of our needs.. A whopping 2%.. not even close to 10%.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 02:33 pm
parados wrote:

reducing from 62 to 60 means it would produce 2% of our needs.. A whopping 2%.. not even close to 10%.


My mistake, I misread his post. Anyway, I think I've read that maybe we could produce a million barrels per day at least, and if we import maybe 12 million barrels now, that would translate into about 8% of our needs, would it not? Alot more than 2%.

Parados, in regard to ethanol, I did not say that I believed everything in my link given was perfect. I said the subject was controversial. I was only citing an opinion that offered another viewpoint. Common sense should be applied here in terms of the amount of corn that would have to be raised to make any significant contribution to energy. First of all, even if it is a net gain in energy, it is not that great. And even given the possible marginal gain of energy, there may be other factors, such as more fertilizer contamination of groundwaters and many other possible effects. I do not think ethanol is automatically a better, more efficient, or more environmentally sound alternative compared to producing conventional oil.

I will need to read up on this subject, but anytime the government has to artificially prop up an industry to make it viable, lets just say I am very skeptical to begin with.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 02:46 pm
okie wrote:
parados wrote:

reducing from 62 to 60 means it would produce 2% of our needs.. A whopping 2%.. not even close to 10%.


My mistake, I misread his post. Anyway, I think I've read that maybe we could produce a million barrels per day at least, and if we import maybe 12 million barrels now, that would translate into about 8% of our needs, would it not? Alot more than 2%.
Not quite. In 2005 we imported about 13.21 billion a day and use almost 22 billion a day. That comes out to about 5% of our present requirements and assumes we have no increase in the next 5 years until ANWAR comes online. The 5% figure also reduces the lifetime of ANWAR production to less than 10 years from 20 claimed. If ANWAR is to produce for 20 years then it will give us about 2% of our needs.

Quote:

Parados, in regard to ethanol, I did not say that I believed everything in my link given was perfect. I said the subject was controversial. I was only citing an opinion that offered another viewpoint. Common sense should be applied here in terms of the amount of corn that would have to be raised to make any significant contribution to energy. First of all, even if it is a net gain in energy, it is not that great. And even given the possible marginal gain of energy, there may be other factors, such as more fertilizer contamination of groundwaters and many other possible effects. I do not think ethanol is automatically a better, more efficient, or more environmentally sound alternative compared to producing conventional oil.
Again you ignore the present advances in farming. Present technology has actually reduced the fertilizer requirements to grow corn. Using GPS and computer controlled application, fertilization is reduced these days.
Quote:

I will need to read up on this subject, but anytime the government has to artificially prop up an industry to make it viable, lets just say I am very skeptical to begin with.
You mean like the oil industry? Why are we selling them drilling rights at reduced rates? Are you skeptical?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 03:49 pm
parados wrote:
Not quite. In 2005 we imported about 13.21 billion a day and use almost 22 billion a day. That comes out to about 5% of our present requirements and assumes we have no increase in the next 5 years until ANWAR comes online. The 5% figure also reduces the lifetime of ANWAR production to less than 10 years from 20 claimed. If ANWAR is to produce for 20 years then it will give us about 2% of our needs.

Boy, after some days off, I am not sharp with the figures, but hey Parados, you are as bad or worse than me here in regard to figures.

I was going from previous memory of research I've done on this subject. I used a million barrels per day, but it seems I recall it could be 1.5 million per day. But lets assume a million per day, that is 365 million barrels per year, and if the reserve is 10 billion barrels, that is about 27 years of production at that rate. Obviously, real world scenario has the production ramping up to a level, and then tailing off as the reservoirs draw down. The other factor here is current North Slope production that will tail off and will need to be replaced. If we could produce 1.5 million per day for a few years, that would comprise about 7% of our demand if we could hold it at about 22 million per day through conservation and other means.

All of this figuring still comes back to bottom line, that is ANWR is potentially a very significant oil reservoir that we can and should tap in the very near future. To continue to opt out of this option is stupidity, plain and simple. And selfish I might add, given we don't mind plundering other areas of the world. I use the word plunder for the benefit of tree huggers. I don't think it is appropriate, but I use it to point out the need for consistency by environmentalists, which they obviously do not practice.

Quote:
Again you ignore the present advances in farming. Present technology has actually reduced the fertilizer requirements to grow corn. Using GPS and computer controlled application, fertilization is reduced these days.....
Quote:

I will need to read up on this subject, but anytime the government has to artificially prop up an industry to make it viable, lets just say I am very skeptical to begin with.
You mean like the oil industry? Why are we selling them drilling rights at reduced rates? Are you skeptical?


Parados, all of a sudden, you love farming over the oil industry? You are apparently not an equal opportunity environmentalist.

Who is selling drilling rights at reduced rates? I believe government offers land blocks for lease sale and the companies compete in a free market in terms of what they are willing to pay for the leases. If you wish to point out tax breaks for oil companies, all companies receive tax breaks. Things like depletion allowances, although I do not understand all aspects of the situation, I think it simply allows a company to accurately get credit for depletion of oil reserves or inventory, just as a retail store would properly get the same. If you want to compare tax breaks of oil companies over farmers, I am not sure you could win that debate Parados.

Simply pumping oil out of the ground is obviously much more economically efficient than planting corn, harvesting, and then processing into ethanol.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 05:01 pm
Quick point to someone that gets more breaks then your favorite industry.

Don't look at the man behind the curtain. it might mean you aren't as skeptical as you claimed to be.


Quote:
Estimates of oil reserves

There have been conflicting reports as to the amount of oil in ANWR. A 1998 USGS study indicated at least 5.7 billion (95% probability) and possibly as much as 16.0 billion (5% probability) barrels (0.9 to 2.5 km³) exists in ANWR, with a mean value of 10.4 billion barrels (1.7 km³). Technically recoverable oil within the ANWR 1002 area (excluding State and Native areas) is estimated to be at least 4.3 billion (95%) and as much as 11.8 billion (5%) barrels (0.7 to 1.9 km³), with a mean value of 7.7 billion barrels (1.2 km³). [3]

The 10.4 billion barrel figure and an estimate of 1.4 million barrels per day were used in publications by the U.S. Department of the Interior while it was headed by Gale Norton, a proponent of drilling in ANWR. [32]

The U.S. consumes about 20 million barrels daily. If the ANWR oil reserves were used to supply 5% of the U.S. daily consumption (most is imported from Canada (19.5% of all imported oil), Mexico (15%), Saudi-Arabia (11.5%), Nigeria (10.5%) and Venezuela (10.5%)[33]), the reserves, using the low figure of 4.3 billion barrels, would last approximately 4300 days, or almost 12 years. Using the high estimate, the reserves would last approximately 11800 days, or 32 years.

However, not everyone is as optimistic as USGS about potential resources. Chevron Texaco, BP, and ConocoPhillips, who are the main operators in the North Slope, and, as such, have a good knowedge of the region's geology, all withdrew from lobbying for opening the region. [34]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy

a 95% chance of 12 years of oil at 5%. The 20 million barrels has gone up since this was obviously written. 22 million a day in 2005. We aren't seeing US demand go down any even with the high prices.

22 million barrels X .05 = 1.1 million per day
4,300/1.1 = just a little over 10 years at present demand.

Take demand up another 10% over the next 10 years. (Not unreasonable, population is expected to climb by over 10% in a 10 year period, US Census. US per capita demand will go down but overall demand will go up.)
4,300/1.21 = just under 10 years
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 10:02 pm
This link shows ethanol produced the equivalent of about 300,000 barrels per day in August, 2005.

http://www.ethanol.org/PressRelease10.24.05.htm

Admittedly, the production will grow, Parados, but if you consider the fact that only a minor percentage of that figure is net gain, in other words, I don't know the exact figure but I would guess maybe 200,000 barrels or more are consumed in producing the ethanol. Add to this the fact that perhaps ethanol does not produce the equivalent mpg in vehicles. At least it does not in mine.

I am all for ethanol if it proves its efficiency in the market place, but I do not see it as the magic bullet, and I am not enthusiastic about subsidizing an inefficient industry.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jul, 2006 11:56 pm
Okie-I don't mean to interrupt this fascinating conversation about ethanol but since this is a thread about Global Warming it is, in my opinion, imperative that we look ahead, far ahead.

Bjorn Lomborg, who classes himself as "an old left-wing Greenpeace member" but is none the less a hard headed scientist, specifically a Professor of Statistics from Denmark, gives what I think is a fascinating and well reasoned look at the problem of "Global Warming"

Here is what Professor Lomborg says in his book-"The Skeptical Environmentalist"

P. 322

quote

"What are we arguing about? Do we want to handle Global Warming in the most efficient way or do we want to use global warming AS A STEPPING STONE TO OTHER POLITICAL PROJECTS. Before we make this clear to ourselves and others the debate will continue to be muddled....We should not spend vast amounts of money to cut a tiny slice of the global temperature increase when this constitutes a poor use of resources and when we could probably use these funds far more effectively in the developing world...To give a feel for the size of the problem, THE KYOTO PROTOCOL WILL LIKELY COST AT LEAST 150 BILLION A YEAR AND POSSIBLY MUCH MORE..UNICEF ESTIMATES THAT JUST 70-80 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR COULD GIVE ALL THIRD WORLD INHABITANTS ACCESS TO THE BASICS LIKE HEALTH, EDUCATION, WATER AND SANITATION....SINCE CUTTING BACK CO2 EMISSIONS BECOMES VERY COSTLY AND EASILY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, WE SHOULD FOCUS MORE OF OUR EFFORT AT FINDING WAYS OF EASING THE EMISSION OF GREENHOUSE GASES OVER THE LONG RUN....



This means we need to invest much more in research and development of SOLAR POWER, FUSION AND OTHER LIKELY POWER SOURCES OF THE FUTURE."
end of quote

It is clear to me, Okie, that the left wing is not as focused at solving the problem as they should be. They are obviously engaged in what Mr. Lomborg refers to as using Global Warming as(SEE ABOVE) "stepping stones to other political projects".
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 02:12 am
Bernard, many of the issues leftists use, they are not really that interested in them as such. They only use the issues to further their own political agenda. Global warming is a good example because when you look at their proposed solutions, they don't work, and they know it. Kyoto doesn't work, at least not to any significant extent. So the obvious conclusion is there is something else going on here.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 02:17 am
Communist conspiracy. Preparing the next Sodom and Gomorrha. Stultification of the masses.
0 Replies
 
 

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