President Bush: Is He a Liar?

This is the "lie" Wilson bragged of having "debunked" after being sent by the CIA to Niger in 2002 to check out the intelligence it had received to that effect. Wilson would later angrily deny that his wife had recommended him for this mission, and would do his best to spread the impression that choosing him had been the Vice President's idea.

Perhaps you could ask Roxxxanne?

candidone1 wrote:

BernardR wrote:

I would be stung to the quick except for three things:

l. Name calling is explictly prohibited by the TOS

2. The first refuge of posters who cannot meet the arguments given to them is to name call.

3. I would never call you names, Mr. Cyclopitchorn. I don't have to. All I have to do, as I just did, is to show that your argument is erroneous.

Do multiple screen-names contravene the TOS?
Why on earth would somone get banned from A2K other than for repeated offenses that were against the TOS?
I direct this to anyone with the relevent information.

Perhaps you could ask Roxxxanne?

The TOS? I have been informed that one of the rules of the TOS is to follow the topic. The topic of this thread is- Whether President Bush is a liar!!!

BernardR wrote:

The TOS? I have been informed that one of the rules of the TOS is to follow the topic. The topic of this thread is- Whether President Bush is a liar!!!

Well Possum, it has already been determined that Bush is a liar. I suppose that should note an end to this topic.

Bernie....

This starts with some lies of its own

Quote:

This is the "lie" Wilson bragged of having "debunked" after being sent by the CIA to Niger in 2002 to check out the intelligence it had received to that effect. Wilson would later angrily deny that his wife had recommended him for this mission, and would do his best to spread the impression that choosing him had been the Vice President's idea.

Wilson "bragged" of debunking?
Wilson spread the impression that the VP had the idea of choosing him?
Wilson angrily denied his wife recommended him?

Wilson did none of those things. It is a lie to claim he did them and anyone that starts their premise with 3 lies is suspect.

Sometimes it is useful to review the facts as reported by the MSM and that is in the official record:

1.) Wilson Insisted That The Vice President's Office Sent Him To Niger:

Wilson Said He Traveled To Niger At CIA Request To Help Provide Response To Vice President's Office. "In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. … The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office." (Joseph C. Wilson, Op-Ed, "What I Didn't Find In Africa," The New York Times, 7/6/03)

Joe Wilson: "[W]hat They Did, What The Office Of The Vice President Did, And, In Fact, I Believe Now From Mr. Libby's Statement, It Was Probably The Vice President Himself ..." (CNN's "Late Edition," 8/3/03)
Vice President Cheney: "I Don't Know Joe Wilson. I've Never Met Joe Wilson. … And Joe Wilson - I Don't [Know] Who Sent Joe Wilson. He Never Submitted A Report That I Ever Saw When He Came Back." (NBC's "Meet The Press," 9/14/03)

CIA Director George Tenet: "In An Effort To Inquire About Certain Reports Involving Niger, CIA's Counter-Proliferation Experts, On Their Own Initiative, Asked An Individual With Ties To The Region To Make A Visit To See What He Could Learn." (Central Intelligence Agency, "Statement By George J. Tenet, Director Of Central Intelligence," Press Release, 7/11/03)

Wilson Insisted That The Vice President's Office Sent Him To Niger:

In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report.

Officials from the CIA's DO CounterproliferationDivision (CPD) told Committee staff that in response to questions from the Vice President's Office and the Departments of State and Defense on the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal, CPD officials discussed ways to obtain additional information. ...
CPD decided to contact a former ambassador to Gabon who had a posting early in his career in Niger.

4.) Wilson Denied His Wife Suggested He Travel To Niger In 2002:

Wilson Claimed His Wife Did Not Suggest He Travel To Niger To Investigate Reports Of Uranium Deal; Instead, Wilson Claims It Came Out Of Meeting With CIA. CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "Among other things, you had always said, always maintained, still maintain your wife, Valerie Plame, a CIA officer, had nothing to do with the decision to send to you Niger to inspect reports that uranium might be sold from Niger to Iraq. … Did Valerie Plame, your wife, come up with the idea to send you to Niger?" Joe Wilson: "No. My wife served as a conduit,

You have to use the whole quote Parados. No fair cherry picking the lines you can rebut if the rest is ignored.

and would do his best to spread the impression that choosing him had been the Vice President's idea.

Quote:

4.) Wilson Denied His Wife Suggested He Travel To Niger In 2002:

Wilson Claimed His Wife Did Not Suggest He Travel To Niger To Investigate Reports Of Uranium Deal; Instead, Wilson Claims It Came Out Of Meeting With CIA. CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "Among other things, you had always said, always maintained, still maintain your wife, Valerie Plame, a CIA officer, had nothing to do with the decision to send to you Niger to inspect reports that uranium might be sold from Niger to Iraq. … Did Valerie Plame, your wife, come up with the idea to send you to Niger?" Joe Wilson: "No. My wife served as a conduit,

More obfuscation and innuendo here Fox..

Wilson denied his wife suggested he travel vs Wilson denying she had anything to do with the decision. She didn't have anything to do with the decision.
There is a difference between making a recommendation and making the decision. Plame didn't make the decision to send someone to Niger and she didn't make the decision to send her husband.

Show me the evidence of Wilson claiming Plame didn't suggest to the CIA that he go once the CIA decided to send someone. Wilson says she didn't decide. That is a far cry from him saying she didn't suggest him for the position.

There is no evidence of Wilson angrily denying his wife recommended him for the mission. There is evidence of Wilson denying that his wife made the decision. She didn't make the decision. Go read the report by congress again.

The statements I pointed out as false remain false. You have only pointed to how false the arguments are. You have to twist the meanings of words to make Wilson into a liar.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "Among other things, you had always said, always maintained, still maintain your wife, Valerie Plame, a CIA officer, had nothing to do with the decision to send to you Niger to inspect reports that uranium might be sold from Niger to Iraq. … Did Valerie Plame, your wife, come up with the idea to send you to Niger?" Joe Wilson: "No. My wife served as a conduit.

Mr. Wilson is not the President of the United States.

Nor was he the only US investigation into the Niger deal; the other two independent inquiries reported the same thing that he did.

Wilson would later angrily deny that his wife had recommended him for this mission

CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "Among other things, you had always said, always maintained, still maintain your wife, Valerie Plame, a CIA officer, had nothing to do with the decision to send to you Niger to inspect reports that uranium might be sold from Niger to Iraq. … Did Valerie Plame, your wife, come up with the idea to send you to Niger?" Joe Wilson: "No. My wife served as a conduit.

DrewDad wrote:

Mr. Wilson is not the President of the United States.

Nor was he the only US investigation into the Niger deal; the other two independent inquiries reported the same thing that he did.

To this day, I believe British intelligence is standing by their report of the Niger connection to Iraq's WMD. And no, nobody but Wilson and those who want him to be right support his version of the facts on that. The CIA sure didn't think he had much that was credible which is why Cheney never got his report.

The qualifiers such as 'angrily' could be disputable, but the facts themselves are not.

Sometimes it is useful to review the facts as reported by the MSM and that is in the official record:

1.) Wilson Insisted That The Vice President's Office Sent Him To Niger:

Wilson Said He Traveled To Niger At CIA Request To Help Provide Response To Vice President's Office. "In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. … The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office." (Joseph C. Wilson, Op-Ed, "What I Didn't Find In Africa," The New York Times, 7/6/03)

Joe Wilson: "[W]hat They Did, What The Office Of The Vice President Did, And, In Fact, I Believe Now From Mr. Libby's Statement, It Was Probably The Vice President Himself ..." (CNN's "Late Edition," 8/3/03)
Vice President Cheney: "I Don't Know Joe Wilson. I've Never Met Joe Wilson. … And Joe Wilson - I Don't [Know] Who Sent Joe Wilson. He Never Submitted A Report That I Ever Saw When He Came Back." (NBC's "Meet The Press," 9/14/03)

CIA Director George Tenet: "In An Effort To Inquire About Certain Reports Involving Niger, CIA's Counter-Proliferation Experts, On Their Own Initiative, Asked An Individual With Ties To The Region To Make A Visit To See What He Could Learn." (Central Intelligence Agency, "Statement By George J. Tenet, Director Of Central Intelligence," Press Release, 7/11/03)

BLITZER: Is that true?

WILSON: Well, look, it's absolutely true that neither the vice president nor Dr. Rice nor even George Tenet knew that I was traveling to Niger.

What they did, what the office of the vice president did, and, in fact, I believe now from Mr. Libby's statement, it was probably the vice president himself...

BLITZER: Scooter Libby is the chief of staff for the vice president.

WILSON: Scooter Libby.

They asked essentially that we follow up on this report -- that the agency follow up on the report. So it was a question that went to the CIA briefer from the Office of the Vice President. The CIA, at the operational level, made a determination that the best way to answer this serious question was to send somebody out there who knew something about both the uranium business and those Niger officials that were in office at the time these reported documents were executed.

I believe the British later found the claim to be without merit as well.

They didn't decide that til after the speech so Bush still has that to fall back on, the British believed it to be true at the time he said it.

Butler Report
While some officials in the CIA were skeptical of the Niger documents, President Bush relied mainly on intelligence from Britain for his State of the Union message and used the Niger documents for confirmation. Britain had multiple sources for the intelligence that Iraq sought uranium from both Niger and the Republic of Congo. Here are some conclusions from the Butler Report (which was very critical of other aspects of intelligence findings on WMD in Iraq) found on pages 122-125: [30]

Conclusion 494. There was further and separate intelligence that in 1999 the Iraqi regime had also made inquiries about the purchase of uranium ore in the Democratic Republic of Congo. In this case, there was some evidence that by 2002 an agreement for a sale had been reached.

Conclusion 499. We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government's dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded. By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush's State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" was well-founded.

Conclusion 503. From our examination of the intelligence and other material on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa, we have concluded that:

a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.
b. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible.
c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium, and the British Government did not claim this.
d. The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.
Although sources other than the Niger documents are mentioned, no evidence of this is advanced directly within the Butler Report itself.