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President Bush: Is He a Liar?

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 05:02 am
BernardR wrote:
The prisoners at Gitmo will still be there in Jan. 2009!!!


I might misread you, but that sounds a bit as if you were happy about this fact. Probably not, though, as you said before that

old europe wrote:
There has been no finding. The fact that no statement has been issued means that NO ONE is guilty. Unless, of course, one adopts the tactics of the Islamo-fascists.


It is a difficult fact that the US now has hundreds of people imprisoned, for years, who have not been found guilty. And if you maintain that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply, then they are no POWs either and cannot be held in prison until the end of an imaginary war (the one against terrorism).
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 06:53 am
Apparently, the right or wrong of a situation is decided entirely by the courts. One should be a nice little sheeple until the courts have decided.

It is good to know the OJ is out there looking for the real killer, because the court determined that he need not spend time in jail.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 06:55 am
That last post goes for Tico as well, since I've seen him continuing to argue a point even after the Supreme Court has ruled on it.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 07:47 am
DrewDad wrote:
That last post goes for Tico as well, since I've seen him continuing to argue a point even after the Supreme Court has ruled on it.


Really? When?

Please tell me what you're referring to so I can clear up your misunderstanding.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 07:58 am
Tico, I read your link and I didn't see any report there saying he outing of Plame caused no damage. It is pretty implicit that it did. BTW, it is not uncommon for covert agents to return to headquarters and continue to work on a covert project. This is the case with Plame. Outing her was treasonous. Moreover, Libby lied about his involvement. Woodward also was deceptive about his involvement, and has apologized for this.

"West Wing is gone. And ABC has cancelled Commander in Chief. So, now the only fictional president is Bush."
--Letterman
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 08:37 am
"President Bush said today that he has nothing but respect for Mexico and it's people and he will always speak the truth to them. Here's my question, when can we get that deal? That sounds pretty good. "
--Leno
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 08:56 am
This will be invisible to or over the heads of those who are determined to make the President the worst liar to have ever held public office.

For those who know better, however, here is a refresher course on the real deal: I highlighted the last paragraph because it is the phenomenon that we contend with, and the country I believe is the poorer for it.

Revisionist History Antiwar myths about Iraq, debunked.

BY PETER WEHNER
Tuesday, May 23, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

Iraqis can participate in three historic elections, pass the most liberal constitution in the Arab world, and form a unity government despite terrorist attacks and provocations. Yet for some critics of the president, these are minor matters. Like swallows to Capistrano, they keep returning to the same allegations--the president misled the country in order to justify the Iraq war; his administration pressured intelligence agencies to bias their judgments; Saddam Hussein turned out to be no threat since he didn't possess weapons of mass destruction; and helping democracy take root in the Middle East was a postwar rationalization. The problem with these charges is that they are false and can be shown to be so--and yet people continue to believe, and spread, them. Let me examine each in turn:

The president misled Americans to convince them to go to war. "There is no question [the Bush administration] misled the nation and led us into a quagmire in Iraq," according to Ted Kennedy. Jimmy Carter charged that on Iraq, "President Bush has not been honest with the American people." And Al Gore has said that an "abuse of the truth" characterized the administration's "march to war." These charges are themselves misleading, which explains why no independent body has found them credible. Most of the world was operating from essentially the same set of assumptions regarding Iraq's WMD capabilities. Important assumptions turned out wrong; but mistakenly relying on faulty intelligence is a world apart from lying about it.

Let's review what we know. The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) is the intelligence community's authoritative written judgment on specific national-security issues. The 2002 NIE provided a key judgment: "Iraq has continued its [WMD] programs in defiance of U.N. resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of U.N. restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade."

Thanks to the bipartisan Silberman-Robb Commission, which investigated the causes of intelligence failures in the run-up to the war, we now know that the President's Daily Brief (PDB) and the Senior Executive Intelligence Brief "were, if anything, more alarmist and less nuanced than the NIE" (my emphasis). We also know that the intelligence in the PDB was not "markedly different" from that given to Congress. This helps explains why John Kerry, in voting to give the president the authority to use force, said, "I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security." It's why Sen. Kennedy said, "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." And it's why Hillary Clinton said in 2002, "In the four years since the inspectors, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability and his nuclear program."

Beyond that, intelligence agencies from around the globe believed Saddam had WMD. Even foreign governments that opposed his removal from power believed Iraq had WMD: Just a few weeks before Operation Iraqi Freedom, Wolfgang Ischinger, German ambassador to the U.S., said, "I think all of our governments believe that Iraq has produced weapons of mass destruction and that we have to assume that they continue to have weapons of mass destruction."

In addition, no serious person would justify a war based on information he knows to be false and which would be shown to be false within months after the war concluded. It is not as if the WMD stockpile question was one that wasn't going to be answered for a century to come.

The Bush administration pressured intelligence agencies to bias their judgments. Earlier this year, Mr. Gore charged that "CIA analysts who strongly disagreed with the White House . . . found themselves under pressure at work and became fearful of losing promotions and salary increases." Sen. Kennedy charged that the administration "put pressure on intelligence officers to produce the desired intelligence and analysis."

This myth is shattered by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence's bipartisan Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq. Among the findings: "The committee did not find any evidence that intelligence analysts changed their judgments as a result of political pressure, altered or produced intelligence products to conform with administration policy, or that anyone even attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to do so." Silberman-Robb concluded the same, finding "no evidence of political pressure to influence the Intelligence Community's prewar assessments of Iraq's weapons programs. . . . Analysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments." What the report did find is that intelligence assessments on Iraq were "riddled with errors"; "most of the fundamental errors were made and communicated to policy makers well before the now-infamous NIE of October 2002, and were not corrected in the months between the NIE and the start of the war."

Because weapons of mass destruction stockpiles weren't found, Saddam posed no threat. Howard Dean declared Iraq "was not a danger to the United States." John Murtha asserted, "There was no threat to our national security." Max Cleland put it this way: "Iraq was no threat. We now know that. There are no weapons of mass destruction, no nuclear weapons programs." Yet while we did not find stockpiles of WMD in Iraq, what we did find was enough to alarm any sober-minded individual.

Upon his return from Iraq, weapons inspector David Kay, head of the Iraq Survey Group (ISG), told the Senate: "I actually think this may be one of those cases where [Iraq under Saddam Hussein] was even more dangerous than we thought." His statement when issuing the ISG progress report said: "We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities" that were part of "deliberate concealment efforts" that should have been declared to the U.N. And, he concluded, "Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction."

Among the key findings of the September 2004 report by Charles Duelfer, who succeeded Mr. Kay as ISG head, are that Saddam was pursuing an aggressive strategy to subvert the Oil for Food Program and to bring down U.N. sanctions through illicit finance and procurement schemes; and that Saddam intended to resume WMD efforts once U.N. sanctions were eliminated. According to Mr. Duelfer, "the guiding theme for WMD was to sustain the intellectual capacity achieved over so many years at such a great cost and to be in a position to produce again with as short a lead time as possible. . . . Virtually no senior Iraqi believed that Saddam had forsaken WMD forever. Evidence suggests that, as resources became available and the constraints of sanctions decayed, there was a direct expansion of activity that would have the effect of supporting future WMD reconstitution."

Beyond this, Saddam's regime was one of the most sadistic and aggressive in modern history. It started a war against Iran and used mustard gas and nerve gas. A decade later Iraq invaded Kuwait. Iraq was a massively destabilizing force in the Middle East; so long as Saddam was in power, rivers of blood were sure to follow.

Promoting democracy in the Middle East is a postwar rationalization. "The president now says that the war is really about the spread of democracy in the Middle East. This effort at after-the-fact justification was only made necessary because the primary rationale was so sadly lacking in fact," according to Nancy Pelosi.

In fact, President Bush argued for democracy taking root in Iraq before the war began. To take just one example, he said in a speech on Feb. 26, 2003: "A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform that vital region, by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. America's interests in security, and America's belief in liberty, both lead in the same direction: to a free and peaceful Iraq. . . . The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. . . . A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region."

The following day the New York Times editorialized: "President Bush sketched an expansive vision last night of what he expects to accomplish by a war in Iraq. . . . The idea of turning Iraq into a model democracy in the Arab world is one some members of the administration have been discussing for a long time."

These, then, are the urban legends we must counter, else falsehoods become conventional wisdom. And what a strange world it is: For many antiwar critics, the president is faulted for the war, and he, not the former dictator of Iraq, inspires rage. The liberator rather than the oppressor provokes hatred. It is as if we have stepped through the political looking glass, into a world turned upside down and inside out.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008415
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 09:04 am
Advocate wrote:
"President Bush said today that he has nothing but respect for Mexico and it's people and he will always speak the truth to them. Here's my question, when can we get that deal? That sounds pretty good. "
--Leno


Leno hasn't learned that sarcasm or humor only works when it stems from reality. It does not work when it insults our intelligence.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 09:51 am
JustanObserver wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Actually, the best I can do is point out all the ridiculous BS that comes flying towards Bush in the desperate hope that it will stick.

"Shameful, disgusting, and completely inappropriate"? Whatever you say, and you're entitled to your opinion, but such does not constitute any crime I'm aware of.


Another dodge.


What do you mean by "another dodge"?

Quote:
Let me rephrase and see if I get a straight answer this time:


You got a straight answer the first time, you just didn't like the answer you got. You claim the "best" I can do is "hide behind semantics," but the point I'm making is there was apparently no crime involved. You think it's "shameful, disgusting, and completely inappropriate," and I said you are welcome to your opinion, and that makes you neither right nor wrong, but merely sure of your own view. My statement in that regard is not a dodge.

Quote:
JustanObserver wrote:
At the very least, the administration is responsible for blowing the cover of an agent who was formally classified by the CIA, undercover, and that she was classified as a Non-Official Cover agent.


Do you feel it is appropriate to do such a thing for strictly political purposes? This is a totally serious question.


I have said it before, and I will maintain it now, I do not think Plame was "covert" under the IIPA, I don't think her "cover" was very good, and I don't think it was that big of a deal that it was "blown." She was not under deep cover, she was outed by Aldrich Ames and pulled from the field in 1997, she drove to Langley every day, the CIA was not making much of an effort to conceal her status, neither she nor her CIA handlers were trying very hard to keep her hubby from blabbing about the fact that he did contract consulting for the CIA (drawing the attention of foreign spychasers who study Wilson, and who -- after spending a few minutes on google -- learn his wife's maiden name from his bio, then a few minutes later a check of FEC campaign donations records show that "Valerie Wilson" listed "Brewster-Jennings & Associates" as her employer, the Boston office of which the Boston Globe noted "Apparent CIA front didn't offer much cover"), many journalists (it seems) already knew she worked for the CIA, and the CIA did not exert themselves to try and keep Novak from revealing that she worked for the CIA when he called and inquired -- I repeat: Nobody from the CIA called Novak or his editors seeking to quash the story, which the CIA has done in the past. All in all I don't think this is the state secret you seem to want it to be. The question is how seriously did Joe Wilson take her security/cover when he published his op-ed in the NYT?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 09:54 am
Advocate wrote:
Tico, I read your link and I didn't see any report there saying he outing of Plame caused no damage. It is pretty implicit that it did. BTW, it is not uncommon for covert agents to return to headquarters and continue to work on a covert project. This is the case with Plame. Outing her was treasonous. Moreover, Libby lied about his involvement. Woodward also was deceptive about his involvement, and has apologized for this.


Correct ... you did not read a report that said "no damage" was caused, you read that it caused "minimal" damage. Your point -- as best I can determine -- seems to be that if any damage was done, treason was committed. You seem to think that your saying "outing her was treasonous," will carry the day for you. It does ... but only with Bush-haters such as yourself.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 09:54 am
Ticomaya wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
That last post goes for Tico as well, since I've seen him continuing to argue a point even after the Supreme Court has ruled on it.


Really? When?

Please tell me what you're referring to so I can clear up your misunderstanding.


It was the discussion about emminent domain, I believe.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 09:59 am
Here we go: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1230737#1230737
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 10:00 am
DrewDad wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
That last post goes for Tico as well, since I've seen him continuing to argue a point even after the Supreme Court has ruled on it.


Really? When?

Please tell me what you're referring to so I can clear up your misunderstanding.


It was the discussion about emminent domain, I believe.


Oh, you mean the case where the Supreme Court blew it?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 10:01 am
Sorry, twas a discussion regarding homosexual marriage.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 11:02 am
The latest polls show Bush with 71 percent against him, I'm sure a percentage of those really do hate Bush. So, what's your point, Tico?


We shouldn't hate a president that takes us to war that has so far costs over 2,400 soldiers, 18,000 wounded, while the cost to taxpayers now almost two billion every week, and there's no end in site? What shouldn't we hate? This moron is dangerious! There's more terrorist activity in this world today than before Bush took over the white house. Look at all his failures including the handling of the Gulf State floodings, his drug plan, his Leave No Child Behind, and the increase in Americans without health insurance.

Please tell us what he did right?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 11:08 am
Proving once again the rub is his policies, not lying. If the debate is about policies, we would need to take them one by one and have an intelligent debate about them, but for now, I thought the subject was lying.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 12:17 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
So, what's your point, Tico?


I have a lot of points, c.i. Which one are you confused about?

c.i. wrote:
Please tell us what he did right?


He beat Gore and Kerry.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 12:42 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
c.i. wrote:
Please tell us what he did right?


He beat Gore and Kerry.

Tico... that is so incredibly lame....
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 12:51 pm
DD, Tico is right -- he does win elections. He doesn't do anything else well, which even the right understands. Unfortunately, he has done great damage to the country, if not the world. He is the worst president in at least 100 years.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 01:29 pm
I know...

"My side won! My side won!"

Er... aren't we all on the same side? America's side? Winning the election is just the job interview.
0 Replies
 
 

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