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President Bush: Is He a Liar?

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 04:13 pm
I could have been fooled because to me Gus looks like alot of okies. Your looks don't really fit the liberal mold, Gus.
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 04:21 pm
http://www.artic.edu/artaccess/AA_Modern/images/wood_med.jpg
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 04:29 pm
My honest apologies here, no lie, for sidetracking the debate over Bush being a liar.

Carry on.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 04:33 pm
Just to set the record straight: Our "okie" doesn't speak for all the folks in that state. I've a cousin there, a native Oklahoman, whose politics are far more sensible...
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 04:35 pm
After 95 pages, the opposition is now at a loss for words. Their feeble attempts to bolster Bush's diminished credibility have failed and they quietly sit on the ground fearful of being overwhelmingly knocked to the ground again. We may finally answer the question posed.

YES. Bush is a LIAR.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 05:08 pm
Here's the link for the following post. I have only included the last section that seems to explain why "Self-deception is advantageous because it helps us lie to others more convincingly. Concealing the truth from ourselves conceals it from others."

http://www.sciammind.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=0007B7A0-49D6-128A-89D683414B7F0000


Solving the Pinocchio Problem
But why would we filter information? Considered from a biological perspective, this notion presents a problem. The idea that we have an evolved tendency to deprive ourselves of information sounds wildly implausible, self-defeating and biologically disadvantageous. But once again we can find a clue from Mark Twain, who bequeathed to us an amazingly insightful explanation. "When a person cannot deceive himself," he wrote, "the chances are against his being able to deceive other people." Self-deception is advantageous because it helps us lie to others more convincingly. Concealing the truth from ourselves conceals it from others.

In the early 1970s biologist Robert L. Trivers, now at Rutgers University, put scientific flesh on Twain's insight. Trivers made the case that our flair for self-deception might be a solution to an adaptive problem that repeatedly faced ancestral humans when they attempted to deceive one another. Deception can be a risky business. In the tribal, hunter-gatherer bands that were presumably the standard social environment in which our hominid ancestors lived, being caught red-handed in an act of deception could result in social ostracism or banishment from the community, to become hyena bait. Because our ancestors were socially savvy, highly intelligent primates, there came a point when they became aware of these dangers and learned to be self-conscious liars.

This awareness created a brand-new problem. Uncomfortable, jittery liars are bad liars. Like Pinocchio, they give themselves away by involuntary, nonverbal behaviors. A good deal of experimental evidence indicates that humans are remarkably adept at making inferences about one another's mental states on the basis of even minimal exposure to nonverbal information. As Freud once commented, "No mortal can keep a secret. If his lips are silent, he chatters with his fingertips; betrayal oozes out of him at every pore." In an effort to quell our rising anxiety, we may automatically raise the pitch of our voice, blush, break out into the proverbial cold sweat, scratch our nose or make small movements with our feet as though barely squelching an impulse to flee.

Alternatively, we may attempt to rigidly control the tone of our voice and, in an effort to suppress telltale stray movements, raise suspicion by our stiff, wooden bearing. In any case, we sabotage our own efforts to deceive. Nowadays a used-car salesman can hide his shifty eyes behind dark sunglasses, but this cover was not available during the Pleistocene epoch. Some other solution was required.

Natural selection appears to have cracked the Pinocchio problem by endowing us with the ability to lie to ourselves. Fooling ourselves allows us to selfishly manipulate others around us while remaining conveniently innocent of our own shady agendas.

If this is right, self-deception took root in the human mind as a tool for social manipulation. As Trivers noted, biologists propose that the overriding function of self-deception is the more fluid deception of others. Self-deception helps us ensnare other people more effectively. It enables us to lie sincerely, to lie without knowing that we are lying. There is no longer any need to put on an act, to pretend that we are telling the truth. Indeed, a self-deceived person is actually telling the truth to the best of his or her knowledge, and believing one's own story makes it all the more persuasive.

Although Trivers's thesis is difficult to test, it has gained wide currency as the only biologically realistic explanation of self-deception as an adaptive feature of the human mind. The view also fits very well with a good deal of work on the evolutionary roots of social behavior that has been supported empirically.

Of course, self-deception is not always so absolute. We are sometimes aware that we are willing dupes in our own con game, stubbornly refusing to explicitly articulate to ourselves just what we are up to. We know that the stories we tell ourselves do not jibe with our behavior, or they fail to mesh with physical signs such as a thumping heart or sweaty palms that betray our emotional states. For example, the students described earlier, who admitted their lies when watching themselves on videotape, knew they were lying at times, and most likely they did not stop themselves because they were not disturbed by this behavior.

At other times, however, we are happily unaware that we are pulling the wool over our own eyes. A biological perspective helps us understand why the cognitive gears of self-deception engage so smoothly and silently. They cleverly and imperceptibly embroil us in performances that are so skillfully crafted that the act gives every indication of complete sincerity, even to the actors themselves.
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Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 08:33 pm
Resolved: Bush is a liar.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 08:53 pm
Cicerone, That is by far the most relevent post and link to this topic so far. I will have to download the whole thing and read it at my lesure to let it all sink in. Then I will go out and find even more on the very same subject.

Boy , you sure nailed it. I owe you a cold one.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 09:29 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
Just to set the record straight: Our "okie" doesn't speak for all the folks in that state. I've a cousin there, a native Oklahoman, whose politics are far more sensible...


I can live with that. I fully realize that. And to set the record straight, I believe my politics are very sensible and yours perhaps aren't. As Bush often says, we have a difference of opinion.

That brings up a point. I think many accusations of lying by Bush are nothing more than a difference of opinion in terms of what the problem is, whether there is a problem, what the evidence is, what the history of the issue is, whether the problem can and should be solved, and what the best course of action would be to do so. When you add up all of these aspects of an issue, the disagreements are huge. It really defeats the purpose to throw around accusations of lying, bigotry, racism, no compassion for the poor, the list goes on, but often that is where the argument ends up.

Can't we debate the issues on the merits instead?
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 10:28 pm
Ok, so it's settled! Bush is a liar!


All in agreement say "here". Cool
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 10:28 pm
Here Very Happy
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 10:35 pm
okie wrote: Bush says we have a difference of opinion. That's about the dumbest statement on a2k that doesn't say anything except that over 71 percent of Americans disagree wit him. It's not only a "difference of opinion" when this monster Bush is responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children based on Saddam's WMDs that he didn't have. How dumb can anybody be?
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 10:39 pm
I'm hearin ya, CI! <sigh> Man <sigh>!
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2006 12:01 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
okie wrote: Bush says we have a difference of opinion. That's about the dumbest statement on a2k that doesn't say anything except that over 71 percent of Americans disagree wit him. It's not only a "difference of opinion" when this monster Bush is responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children based on Saddam's WMDs that he didn't have. How dumb can anybody be?


How many more than that would Hussein have killed by this time if he were still in power? He had already killed several hundred thousand according to most accounts, and had displaced hundreds of thousands more from their homes and properties from time to time. Plus he had several dozen of his own relatives done away with. He was not done, obviously.

And as I pointed out on another thread, cicerone, I sometimes get to thinking that some of your arguments might have some merit, but then I am jerked back to reality by reading some of your really far out assertions and realize why should I take old cicerone serious on anything. Good question for sure.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2006 12:34 am
Debra_Law wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Debra_Law wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The idea that the invasion was justified is merely my personal opinion. Moral justification is subjective, as should be obvious. While I have supported my opinion with argument for years all over A2K in many, many posts, I am under no obligation to prove it. Someone who accuses someone else of lying, however, is always obligated to prove it, as everyone knows, and as you should know. You sound as though the idea that an accuser is obligated to provide evidence is some novel new concept which you're unfamiliar with.

Since the president's lies are so very obvious, please give one quotation about Iraq which you believe to have been a lie, and then a bit of argument or evidence to support the idea that it was a lie. I suspect that you cannot because your accusations are untrue.




Brandon. You, like Bush, consistently (for years and years) ignore the facts (proof) that contradict your position and then you untruthfully claim that no one has presented proof that contradicts your position. You are being dishonest and untruthful. Accordingly, over the years that you've been posting, you have acquired a reputation on the A2K community for untruthfulness.

If you were in the midst of litigation, Brandon, the opposing party might desire to impeach your credibility by bringing forward reputation witnesses to testify as to your reputation for untruthfulness. Probably several of us would take the stand, establish a foundation that you belong to the same A2K community that we belong to, that we've been following your postings and the community's opinion of the truthfulness of your postings, and testify that you have a reputation in the community for being untruthful----a big fat liar. Members of this A2K community have had sufficient contacts with you to justify an opinion of your reputation for truthfulness or untruthfulness. We wouldn't have to prove any lies----we would only be stating your reputation for being a liar.

Accordingly, your statement that the accusation that someone is a liar must always be proven by establishing proof of the alleged lies is FALSE (accordingly, you've been untruthful AGAIN).

BUSH has a reputation for untruthfulness. He lacks credibility and trustworthiness. It's our collective judgment that counts. Hence, BUSH is a LIAR.

Case closed.



Were you to produce a witness in court that I have a reputation for dishonesty, my lawyer would immediately have the testimony stopped on the grounds that it is hearsay . . . (blah, blah, ignorant rant, blah).


Your lawyer's "hearsay" objection would be overruled on two grounds.

1. The rules of evidence expressly allow your credibility to be impeached via reputation evidence. See, e.g., Federal Rules of Evidence:

Rule 608. Evidence of Character and Conduct of Witness

(a) Opinion and reputation evidence of character.

The credibility of a witness may be attacked or supported by evidence in the form of opinion or reputation, but subject to these limitations: (1) the evidence may refer only to character for truthfulness or untruthfulness, and (2) evidence of truthful character is admissible only after the character of the witness for truthfulness has been attacked by opinion or reputation evidence or otherwise.


2. Reputation evidence falls within an exception to the hearsay rule. See:

Rule 803. Hearsay Exceptions; Availability of Declarant Immaterial

The following are not excluded by the hearsay rule, even though the declarant is available as a witness:

(21) Reputation as to character. Reputation of a person's character among associates or in the community.


* * *

Now that you know about the rules of evidence, perhaps you will review them and try to understand what you're talking about before spouting off about matters of "proof."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rules.htm

Well that's great. One side of a court case can produce a lot of witnesses that make a vague statement that people consider someone untrustworthy without ever having to say on what grounds, or provide the tiniest verification that it's true. It pretty much amounts to denying someone the right to confront his accusers since eveything is reported as "they say."

It's a pity that you find it so hard to debate someone without bringing his character into the debate. If you had a case to make the you would be unlikely to rely on name calling in lieu of logic and evidence. An idea cannot be disproven based on the merist or demerits of the person who originated it, since anyone can have a correct idea.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2006 12:36 am
Debra_Law wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

I don't base my idea of right and wrong on polls. Please give me a link to a post on A2K which proves Bush a liar. I believe that I can almost always show that it does not prove what it purports to. An accusation does not a conviction make Since there is so much proof that he's a liar, you should find this easy.


Go back to the beginning of this thread and start there. You were repeatedly invited to respond, but you refused. Now you demand links? Rolling Eyes

I am not obligated to answer every question that anyone asks of me. And no matter how you try to twist it, someone who accuses another of wrongoing is always morally obligated to present evidence.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2006 12:36 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Debra, They always demand links, even when it's our own opinion. They're full of BS, if you know what I mean.

They keep demanding links that provides the evidence of Bush's lies; but someplace between the links and their brain, it disappears.

Where were those links we ignored again that prove Bush is a liar? Humor me and just post one.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2006 10:49 am
Brandon, You wouldn't know how to interpret the many links out there about Bush's lies at any rate, so why bother?

Just type "bush lies" in any search engine, and you'll get millions of hits. Go read them - if you can.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2006 11:13 am
Debra_Law wrote:
After 95 pages, the opposition is now at a loss for words. Their feeble attempts to bolster Bush's diminished credibility have failed and they quietly sit on the ground fearful of being overwhelmingly knocked to the ground again. We may finally answer the question posed.

YES. Bush is a LIAR.

Now you're simply lying. If this is so, suppose you provide a very brief list of the lies that have been proven in this thread so far, or even just the main ones. I know that you'll merely respond with an ad hominem, since you cannot back up your silly claim.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2006 11:21 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
okie wrote: Bush says we have a difference of opinion. That's about the dumbest statement on a2k that doesn't say anything except that over 71 percent of Americans disagree wit him. It's not only a "difference of opinion" when this monster Bush is responsible for the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women and children based on Saddam's WMDs that he didn't have. How dumb can anybody be?

Bush started a war, as countless national leaders have started wars, because the PROBABILITY that Hussein was still merely hiding his WMD and programs as before was unacceptably high. Even a small probability that a Hussein, or a Pol Pot, or an Idi Amin would come into possession of a stockpile of major WMD is an immense dangers, since one single one of these weapons could obliterate New York, or London, or Madrid. Your portrayal of Bush as a monster for trying to protect you is doubly foolish when one considers that historically most or many wars have been started merely because the initiating country perceived some benefit to be obtained.

Yes, you're right, innocent bystanders never die in just wars. Rolling Eyes
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