President Bush: Is He a Liar?

Foxfyre wrote:

They can be shot as spies as I recall if caught as a combatant out of uniform in your territory.

Even a spy is a protected person in so far as he conforms to the definition given in Article 4 of the Fourth Convention.
Under Article 5 of the Convention, the spy may nevertheless be deprived temporarily of certain rights, particularly the right of communication.

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okie wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
There were not being held prisoner. They were being held hostage. There is a difference.

I understand it all totally now. Lets call the guys at Gitmo hostages why don't we? The thought processes of libs continually amaze me with even more bizarre thinking beyond the imaginable!!!!!!!!

Oh Ticomaya, I see you posted same time as I, but you are far more diplomatic and than me.

I guess the laugh is actually on you. I am not a liberal and I am not an American. I do not subscribe to your politics other than to find a source of amusement in them.

If you don't see the difference between hostages and prisoners, you are the one with bizarre thinking.

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Foxfyre wrote:

My parents ran the commissary at a POW base in New Mexico during WWII.

Americans shot at my father before he was taken POW. Later he (as an army surgeon a non-combattant) and a couple other non-combattants was mock executed .... after they had digged their own tomb before.

I don't doubt that the Geneva Convention was widely disregarded.
But "no mail" was surely uncommon, at least according to everything I've read.

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Intrepid wrote:

okie wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
There were not being held prisoner. They were being held hostage. There is a difference.

I understand it all totally now. Lets call the guys at Gitmo hostages why don't we? The thought processes of libs continually amaze me with even more bizarre thinking beyond the imaginable!!!!!!!!

Oh Ticomaya, I see you posted same time as I, but you are far more diplomatic and than me.

I guess the laugh is actually on you. I am not a liberal and I am not an American. I do not subscribe to your politics other than to find a source of amusement in them.

If you don't see the difference between hostages and prisoners, you are the one with bizarre thinking.

Come on Intrepid. You're usually sharper than that. We're having fun with a concept based on the absolutely absurdity that a terrorist should be entitled to anything other than a speedy trial and execution. And even that is more than the terrorists offer their victims.

Okie certainly knows the difference between hostages and prisoners of war. But in this absurd politically correct climate, we're just playfully speculating on the advantages of taking hostages instead of POWs for obvious reasons stated.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
My parents ran the commissary at a POW base in New Mexico during WWII.

Americans shot at my father before he was taken POW. Later he (as an army surgeon a non-combattant) and a couple other non-combattants was mock executed .... after they had digged their own tomb before.

I don't doubt that the Geneva Convention was widely disregarded.
But "no mail" was surely uncommon, at least according to everything I've read.

I'm sorry if your father had a bad experience. The Germans overall, however, gave a lot of people very bad experiences. Do you think their prisoners received treatment according to the Geneva Convention?

No such improper treatment of POWs occurred in New Mexico, however, according to what I've read and been told by people who were there. I cannot speak for other places of which I have no knowledge.

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Foxfyre wrote:

The Germans overall, however, gave a lot of people very bad experiences. Do you think their prisoners received treatment according to the Geneva Convetnion?

According to all studies I know (which were mostly done by American and British lawyers): 'yes', at the very basics.

(Not, however, for Russian POW's. Not at all.)

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
The Germans overall, however, gave a lot of people very bad experiences. Do you think their prisoners received treatment according to the Geneva Convetnion?

According to all studies I know (which were mostly done by American and British lawyers): 'yes', at the very basics.

(Not, however, for Russian POW's. Not at all.)

Do you have any sources for that Walter? From all accounts I've read both in historical accounts and testimonies of former prisoners, American and British POWs mostly were treated very badly in German POW camps. And then of course there is the matter of the Jews. I suppose maybe they did receive better treatment from the Germans than they did in the custody of the Japanese or later in custody of the North Koreans or the Vietcong.

None of that is pertinent to the conditions that exist today, of course, except when Americans are defending the policies of their country believing that we are mostly humane and reasonable people. There are so many who wish to make us something other than that.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Do you have any sources for that Walter?

I did some researches about that at university (and in various archives).
But I would take some time to re-find those sources. (And actually I don't think that I start that again.)

Jewish POW's ... well, I don't think, they were treated like the others.
(Though Jewish officers were treated better.)

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Advocate wrote:

Fox evidently never heard of FEMA. It is charged with helping with disasters. Bush, however, loaded it up with political hacks, making it a total failure with respect to Katrina and Rita.

FEMA's responsibility is not evacuation before a disaster. The evacuation plan was the responsibility of local and state authorities. The primary function of FEMA is to come in after the fact to provide assistance. By far the worst damage to human lives because of Katrina was suffered because of not executing the evacuation plan in a timely and efficient manner. The blame for this falls directly in the lap of the mayor and governor.

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FEMA's role was initially intended to aid in reconstruction after a major large scale disaster. It was not designed to be and should not be expected to be a rapid response team. FEMA could of course do better than it did with Katrina, and mistakes were made, are still being made, but no President in history has had to marshall response to a hurricane creating a disaster zone alone the entire beachline of three states. It would be unreasonable to have a response team in place that could handle that.

The mayors of cities in harms way and the governors of states should always provide the first line of defense as well as the citizens taking personal responsibility to heed warnings and take necessary precautions. That didn't happen in New Orleans despite having ample warning to make sure everybody had time to get to safety or protect themselves.

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Some information on German held prisoners can be found here

http://www.merkki.com/swartzrobert.htm

Great diary here that lists food, mail recieved etc
http://www.merkki.com/swartzrobert.htm

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Fox, do you have some links to your stories about how badly prisoners were treated?

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parados wrote:

Fox, do you have some links to your stories about how badly prisoners were treated?

No, not really. I just had four uncles plus various other relatives who were in active duty combat in WWII and while none of them were POWs, some had close relationships with people who were. And they've talked about stuff. And hubby is an avid WWII buff reading everything he could get0 his hands on and I've read a few of the books and he has talked about others. Hubby is of the opinion that the Germans were better to their prisoners than most of the Axis countries and would have picked a German prison to be a POW in over say a Japanese camp. That doesn't mean that there was not substantial abuse, however.

I'll see if I can find some links.

May be later tonight or tomorrow though. I'm drafted to direct choir at practice tonight--our regular director is in Spain--and need to sort of familiarize myself with the music between now and then.

So later.

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Quote:

Fox, do you have some links to your stories about how badly prisoners were treated?

Quote:

No, not really.

Imagine our shock. This never happens when you're involved...

Cycloptichorn

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Foxfyre wrote:

That doesn't mean that there was not substantial abuse, however.

But it doesn't mean that was some either.
Actually, to get your opinion from "talked about stuff" isn't surprising.

As said, I did some scientific, academic research on that. And even at that time there had been quite a lot of (first) sources.
[Those I have personally, are only from French and American camps.]

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My relatives in Europe died in the factories where they were shipped to work for the Nazis. The Nazis gathered up thousands of people to work in their factories and treated them very badly. That is historical fact. The East Germans could have led Germany out of trouble but the capitalistic West would not allow it.

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MarionT wrote:

My relatives in Europe died in the factories where they were shipped to work for the Nazis.

No doubts that a lot of POW's - especially from Russia - had to work in factories.

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Yes, they did and some died and it was against the Geneva Convention and they were not all Russian.

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Well, in many POW-camps prisoner of war had to work, actually in most.
And some died in allied camps as well.

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That is not true. None of the people from the east died in Allied camps. The Nazis hated the Ukranians. They worked them to death purposely.

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President Bush: Is He a Liar?

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