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President Bush: Is He a Liar?

 
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 12:33 pm
BernardR wrote:
Oh, please, Debra LAW. A lawyer using Webster's to define law terms. Check out Black's If you don't have a copy, go to the library . . . blah, blah, blah. . . .


Provide the entire definition of "lie" as found in Black's, including "anything which misleads or deceives," and explain why you omitted the entire definition from your post when you demanded that people follow the Black's definition. How do you address the accusation that you're a liar because you deliberately omitted the entire definition in attempt to mislead and deceive?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 12:37 pm
To the best of my knowledge, no person has ever been convicted of perjury for misstating something--the person is always given an opportunity to correct a misstatement. Our President does have a knack for misstatement. Honorable people recognize this and allow for corrections of intent or specific content. Some partisans, for political purposes or for purposes of personal destruction, make no such allowances.

And to the best of my knowledge no person has ever been convicted of perjury for making a statement the person believed to be true. I am 'pretty sure' Smile I'm safe in saying that it must be proved the person intended to deceive before perjury kicks in.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 12:41 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
BernardR wrote:
Debra LAW has inspired me to become precise in my thinking. I will try to follow her example although I will never be able to match her brilliance. I have, because of her example, purchased a Legal Dictionary and am attempting to understand its definitions.

One which fascinates me is the legal definition of Lie.

Black's Law Dictionary--Sixth Edition

quote( Capitals mine)

lie- "A falsehood uttered for the PURPOSE OF DECEPTION; AN INTENTIONAL STATEMENT OF AN UNTRUTH DESIGNED TO MISLEAD ANOTHER"

I am certain that many feel that it is not difficult to decide that a person is a "liar" but, in a court of law, it is necessary that those who make such a charge prove it in terms of the definition above.



I'm pretty sure that the Black's definition of the word "lie" includes "anything which misleads or deceives."


My copy of Black's (5th Ed.) defines a "lie" as follows:

Black's Law Dictionary, 5th Ed. wrote:
Lie, n. An untruth deliberately told; the uttering or acting of that which is false for the purpose of deceiving; intentional misstatement. See Perjury. (p. 831)


End of definition.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 12:41 pm
BTW, Mort B A T, the word "lie" is not a "law term" or "legal term," it's a term of common usage definable by any dictionary, including Webster's.

BTW, Mort BAT, the imperial wizard of stupidity, there is no legal claim known as "lie."
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 12:46 pm
BernardR wrote:
Black's Law Dictionary--Sixth Edition

quote( Capitals mine)

lie- "A falsehood uttered for the PURPOSE OF DECEPTION; AN INTENTIONAL STATEMENT OF AN UNTRUTH DESIGNED TO MISLEAD ANOTHER"




Black's Law Dictionary--Sixth Edition

"Lie. A falsehood uttered for the purpose of deception; an intentional statement of an untruth designed to mislead another; anything which misleads or deceives; it means an untruth deliberately told; the uttering or acting of that which is false for the purpose of deceiving; intentional misstatement"
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 12:47 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
BTW, Mort BAT, the imperial wizard of stupidity, there is no legal claim known as "lie."


I'm pretty sure that's a personal insult in violation of the TOS.
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 12:48 pm
I am very much afraid, Debra LAW, that you missed Ticomaya's post.

As a lawyer, I am sure that you know the meaning of the words in the definition Ticomaya gave--"uttered for the purpose of deceiving"

I am sure that you also know that there must be proof that the statement was "uttered for the purposes of deceiving".

When President Bush is brought up in a court of law, let me know, Debra LAW, so that I can discover whether he is found to be a liar or whether all of the allegations are based on partisan politics.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 12:59 pm
Setanta wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
And you made an assumption. You also failed to address why you calling someone ignorant is not similarly "name-calling."


It was no assumption, it was the direct and clear understanding of what you wrote. You wrote nothing about my treatment of others. You just trot that out after the fact to attempt to justify your name calling. I did not call anyone in this thread or any other ignorant. I pointed out in another thread that claiming that a President can force UN sponsored gun control on the United States is an example of ignorance. The member in question may well be well-informed on many topics, but obviously not in such a matter as that.


Nope, pure assumption on your part. If you took offense it was merely because of your exceedingly thin skin. (Note: I'm referring to your skin, not you.)

Following a post from Baldimo, you replied: "A stunning display of ignorance." Apparently you contend this does not equate to calling Baldimo "ignorant." And, again, I fail to see the difference between that, and my referring to your belly as a "stunning display of girth." I didn't call you fat, but you catch my drift.

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Quote:
I never said my contention proved my case, but it met my burden of production and moved the burden of proof from me over to you. I have made a prima facia showing. Your refusal to respond at this point means you lose by default.


There is no "winning" or "losing" here. You made a contention, and you have failed to demonstrate the truth of your contention. I don't have anything to prove--i made no contention about the relative honesty of anyone. You did, and you've not proven your case.


But when in a court of law, there is a "winner" and a "loser," and if a party meets their burden of persuasion, and the other party presents nothing in rebuttal, they lose.

You haven't proven Bush to be a liar, yet not only can I prove Clinton to be a liar, I can prove that he admits to being a liar, and I can prove that he lied under oath. You have provided nothing of substance in response. As I said, you lose.

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Quote:
You're running. Either provide something of substance to this thread or move on. Your just taking up space as it is.


No, i've not run. I've provided as much substance as this pathetic attempt to derail this thread constitutes. You made a contention, and you have not supported your contention.


The only one attempting to derail the thread it you, in a pathetic display of hypocrisy.

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Quote:
And I suppose you think "whatever passes for a brain in your head" is not an insult? What a pathetic display you're putting on.


That is high praise indeed, coming from the master of pathetic displays. You made a contention,and you have failed to support your contention.


Nice comeback.

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Quote:
Why you're here remains a mystery.


So now you assume the mantle of Judge of Relevance? Why are you here, Tico. Why do you continue these exchanges if you are so devoted to relevance to the topic? You have made a contention, and you have failed to support your contention.


Excellent question. You're obviously going to dodge any attempt on my part to goad you into providing anything of substance, and you're apparently unwilling to either "put up" or "shut up." So I guess my continuing to post serves only to highlight your pathetic showing in this thread.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:00 pm
You advanced the proposition that Clinton was not as honest as the Shrub is. You have failed to support the contention. There is nothing else to be said.
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:04 pm
Ticomaya- When I see a reaction such as that given by the illustrious and erudite Debra LAW, I am certain that emotion has taken over and reason has been tossed out.

You will get nowhere with Setanta,Ticomaya. However, I know one fact which he cannot obliterate. Clinton admitted lying; Bush has never done so. It is now up to the left to establish the ALLEGED lying as a fact.

That won't happen so you can rest your case, Ticomaya.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:06 pm
Setanta wrote:
You advanced the proposition that Clinton was not as honest as the Shrub is. You have failed to support the contention. There is nothing else to be said.


So sayeth Mr. All-Talk-and-No-Substance ... Setanta has spoken.

Well, I guess I'm done with you then.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:10 pm
Well, if making a contention for which you are unwilling to provide any evidence constitutes being "done," then i guess you're right. Bye . . .
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:13 pm
Speaking of definitions, remember this one?

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6999/natter7fw.jpg

It's from Tico's Dictionary of Annoyances, Vol. 1.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:14 pm
Got any proof for your contention that Clinton was not as honest as the Shrub is, Tico? Or are you just intent on continuing to derail the thread?
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:17 pm
Setanta wrote:
Got any proof for your contention that Clinton was not as honest as the Shrub is, Tico? Or are you just intent on continuing to derail the thread?



Ticomaya wrote:
...

Well, I guess I'm done with you then.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:19 pm
If that were so, why do you continue to post?

You have contended that Clinton was not as honest as the Shrub is. Do you have any proof for that proposition?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:20 pm
For those who have failed to comprehend the SEVERAL comments re the confessed lies of the previous occupant in the White House:

http://www.vocabularykids.com/images/frsk.jpg

You can get it here
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:29 pm
Alleging that Clinton has lied, or even proving that Clinton has lied, does not constitute evidence that he is more or less dishonest than the Shrub. Given that the image Fox has posted likely represents a level beyond her own reading comprehension, it seemed necessary to point this out.
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username
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:32 pm
Well I seem to remember Bush telling us a few weeks ago that his program of surveillance was ONLY concerned with overseas contacts between people in America and people in other countries who could have possible connections to terrorism. And today the news is full of the NSA program that is trying to database EVERY call made in the US, to other numbers in the US. Including every call whoever of you reads this makes. With no oversight. Outraging a bunch of Republicans in Congress. Leaving the kneejerk apologists scrambling. Again. That boy sure tells some whoppers.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 01:37 pm
An on topic comment--that's charming, and unexpected. It will be interesting to see how the Shrub's crowd spins this.
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