So? What does that have to do with anything being said here unless she is a radical Leftwing wacko who can't see any good whatsoever in America or its leaders?
My last post to you here fox. Your notions of what represents america is so small and close-minded that talking with you is like speaking into a pinhole. You will, again, conveniently forget or mis-remember most of what I'm going to end with here.
There is very little about this administration that is "conservative". It is, in almost all policies and goals, authoritarian, reactionary and deeply extremist. With any luck, many of its main members will be indicted for war crimes, for giving false testimony, and for corruption.
You have a tradition of conservative thought in America which sits outside of this present "version" which seems your happy place. I have a very bright conservative friend (much brighter than I in many ways) with whom I can have rational conversations. That would be so with Bill Buckley or even George Will or Gerald Ford or John McCain or Brent Scowcroft or Thomas or...long long list. The other evening, talking with my friend, I inquired whether she knew Richard Perle. She does. She said "He's a despicable person". She holds that the adventure in Iraq is just about the stupidest (most counter-productive and destructive) policy she's seen an American government set out on. I just helped her edit her CV. She's A+ conservative. You are about a C-. We disagree on lots but she NEVER commits the sort of ideologically driven fallacies you constantly deal in. She has an educated and an open mind.
Briefly and very generally, conservatism's vs Liberalism's strengths:
1) comprehension that what is "new" has the deficit of being experimental and does not have necessary inherant value simply because it is new.
In contrast, the liberal valuation of the untried opens the door to progress
2) conservatism places a focus or burden upon the individual to be responsible for self and for the local area about him/her
In contrast, the liberal valuation recognizes inherent inequalities of birth and circumstance and seeks to find ways to ameliorate these, out of a sense of both justice and out of empathy for one's brothers
3) conservatism values and supports the natural tendencies in us to be eager in the face of challenge and thus strive towards and approach or reach what might have been considered unattainable
In contrast, liberalism places value on the gains that can be made in this direction through co-operative rather than competitive systems
4) conservatism is prudently cautious in assumption of idealistic or utopian pursuits
In contrast, liberalism can, in its relative imprudence, not only make mistakes but also can build new institutions that really do move in the direction of increased justice and social stability.
I'll end there.
I wasn't discussing the merits of liberalism and conservatism, either in their classical definitions or their modern defintiions. I was discussing the current goals/policies/procedures/methods/vision/etc. of the current administration and those who support it, those being mostly conservatives in the modern definition. Based on the vote of the last two elections, these represent what America is today. I think your view, not mine, is the narrow one. You wish to condense the discussion into the opinion of a friend or ideological points of view.
I wish to deal with the broader picture of what America is now and what it hopes to be. Can you find any positive in our current administration and those who support it?
I did enjoy your analysis of conservatism vs liberalism, however. I wish we could discuss that without making it a personal bruhaha.
Intrepid wrote:What would constitute success in Iraq?
Earlier this week, a commentator on WBUR, a public radio station, said that he watches kindergarteners walk past his house at 3:30 on their way to day care and thinks that at least one of those kids will fight in Iraq.
Foxfyre wrote:
Success in Iraq would be a government committed to qualifying their country to join the free peoples of the world complete with human rights, free trade, and capitalism.
Turkey is a shining example of an Islamic country that has achieved these goals. There is no reason to think that Iraq could not also, but it will not happen if those trying to achieve it are constantly undermined and weakened by the negative nabobs and those who are willing to see failure in Iraq rather than give President George Bush any credit for its success.
As the US is attempting for force upon the Iraqi people a government designed by the US, it is difficult to accept such a government as free.
Despite quoting a former vice president's speech writer, the argument that bush must be given credit falls flat. Self-determination is more valuable than allowing one's nation to be recast by an external power.
Foxfyre wrote:Well, I'll believe Blatham is anti-American so long as his posts are critical of America, its politics, policies, leaders, and goals and he has little or nothing good to say about any of them or anybody who does not condemn them as he does. I keep waiting for a change of heart now that he's living amongst us, but alas, no sign of dawn breaking yet.
Some of the most fervent critics are deeply pro-American: why else would they criticize, except to keep the country honest? To label someone who is appalled by the war-mongering, environment-destroying, civil rights-ignoring bush an anti-American is to use a buzz word you don't understand.
Foxfyre wrote:Based on the vote of the last two elections, these represent what America is today. I think your view, not mine, is the narrow one. You wish to condense the discussion into the opinion of a friend or ideological points of view.
Wrong! More than half the country didn't vote at all. THEY are what America is today.
Narrow view indeed.
Foxfyre wrote:
Appreciating things or those who hold leftwing or defeatist ideologies that most Americans have rejected doesn't really count. Appreciating current policies/procedures/goals/accomplishments is pertinent. If you will point me to any of those that you favor, I'll amend my assessment of your attitude about what America is.
WOW! Since when is the left defeatist and why does only today matter?
blatham wrote:My last post to you here fox.
Professor Blatham has spoken ... end of lecture.
blatham wrote:... She's A+ conservative. You are about a C-.
... and there's your grade.
What do I get, blatham? I'm guessing a straight D ... maybe a D+ ....
Perhaps we can continue without the haughtiness?
Foxfyre wrote:I'm not asking him to change his political views. I'm asking him to show that he appreciates anything other than the negative, Anti-American defeatist views of the radical Left in this country, not years or decades ago, but now.
Yes, you are. Why don't you list what the right has done -- besides wage an unjust war -- that is positive?
Here is some more interesting stuff on Neil Bush. Companies loved to lavish money on him for his expert advice. What a lucky guy!
When visiting Thailand and Hong Kong, he said, prostitutes would show up at his room and have gratuitous sex with him. He said it was very unusual.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/25/bush.brother.reut/
Here's some interesting stuff on Roger Clinton. In a frantic effort to win a parole for an organized crime figure - a member of the Gambino crime family - Roger Clinton, the brother of former president Clinton, used his presidential connection to win sympathy from the Parole Commission.
He also reportedly went to rehab for cocaine addiction at the $675-a-day Cottonwood de Tucson rehab center, according to the National Enquirer.
LINK
And Roger Clinton was no more pertinent to the politics of his day than Neil Bush is to his wouldn't you say? Except perhaps that Roger did try to use his brother's power/influence for this own ends. There is no evidence that Neil Bush has done that.
And then there's Hillary's brother:
Quote:Feb. 22, 2001 | It's been a good run for the National Enquirer this year, breaking one of the biggest political scoops of the season: the pay-for-pardon deal arranged by Hugh Rodham, former President Bill Clinton's brother-in-law, for herbal medicine man Almon Glenn Braswell.
SALON
Dubai funds Neil Bush's company
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Posted: February 27, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Investors from the United Arab Emirates helped fund the $23 million Neil Bush raised for Ignite!, the learning systems company that holds lucrative No Child Left Behind Act contracts in Florida and Texas. The "Cow" is an Ignite! portable computer designed to work in a classroom, providing interactive instruction aimed at improving students' scores on standardized tests. If you loved Billy Carter and "Billy Beer," you're certain to love Neil Bush and the "Ignite! Cow."
Neil Bush's frequent travels to Dubai are documented by Datamatix, a Dubai-based information technology company that has featured Neil Bush as a speaker. The Datamatix website features several prominent photographs of Neil Bush addressing a Dubai conference, identifying Neil Bush as "the brother of U.S. President George Bush
Intrepid wrote:Dubai funds Neil Bush's company
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 27, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Investors from the United Arab Emirates helped fund the $23 million Neil Bush raised for Ignite!, the learning systems company that holds lucrative No Child Left Behind Act contracts in Florida and Texas. The "Cow" is an Ignite! portable computer designed to work in a classroom, providing interactive instruction aimed at improving students' scores on standardized tests. If you loved Billy Carter and "Billy Beer," you're certain to love Neil Bush and the "Ignite! Cow."
Neil Bush's frequent travels to Dubai are documented by Datamatix, a Dubai-based information technology company that has featured Neil Bush as a speaker. The Datamatix website features several prominent photographs of Neil Bush addressing a Dubai conference, identifying Neil Bush as "the brother of U.S. President George Bush
And you see this as a problem, how?
Not a problem for me. It does, however, indicate that he is using his brother for his own ends.
