Immigration and Racism in Britain and USA

cicerone imposter wrote:

McTag wrote:
Outcasts: Italy turns on its immigrants in wake of a murder

These are the first victims of a brutal Italian crackdown on immigrants. As thousands await deportation without trial, are we entering a new era of intolerance across Europe?

By Peter Popham in Rome
Published: 03 November 2007

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article3124253.ece

What ever happened to equality for all in Europe? Is it breaking down already? Is crossing the border in Euro countries getting difficult to impossible?

When did Europeans want equality for all? As part of the EU? Are we talking about the same Europeans that only a hundred years ago thought that each nation was its own race?

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Foofie, They have been trying to consolidate everything from their government, security, currency, freedom of movement, job opportunity, freedom of trade, and almost everything one can think of as one big (happy) country.

They haven't been able to agree a unifying constitution, but last I heard they modified the first one to make it more palatable for the majority of European countries. As you probably know, some countries disagreed with it, and voted it down.

It has been my contention from the very beginning that such a grand plan was doomed to failure, because all the countries have different laws, different inflation rates, different economies, and different groups with different interests. We in the US have only two major political parties, and even we can't agree on issues; try over a dozen Euro countries.

IMHO, I believe the UK was smart to stay on their own currency.

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Maybe over centuries they will meld into one country, based on populations moving between countries for jobs. So each present country will slowly develop an identity closer to what someone in Ohio has, or Alabama has, for example.

So, the old identities that was based on a shared ancestral history of being descended from some wandering people settling in a region, will be no more. One less reason to divide people.

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That is a rational conclusion from what we have experienced here in the US with over 150 nationalities represented. Ours is a true melting pot; our family includes about eight cultures that I know of in one generation. There's hope.

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Since the Iron Curtain fell, the former communist countries have been in a transition stage, and a state of flux.
Many of their young people want to live and work in the more prosperous west, and investment in the east is patchy and slow. It is a long process.
Meanwhile, there is an immigration problem into Europe from almost all the countries surrounding it.
Italy lies near N Africa, Albania, former Yugoslavia.......so in Italy the problem is more acute. It is on the immigrant routes, and seemingly not so well-organised as some of its northern neighbours.

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I don't believe I'm just playing with words, but since (correctly, I believe) people refer to the U.S. as a melting pot, why should the U.S. be one of the few melting pots in the world?

In effect, the "problem" with immigrants coming into Europe might mainly be because it is "perceived" as a problem, because European countries like their respective cultures, distilled over a millenia. Or, am I wrong in this opinion? Who says Europe should be ever so continental???

And, before the Holocaust in WWII, didn't the Nazis say they had a "Jewish problem"? I'm saying the word "problem" may be in the eyes of the beholder, and reflects preferences, not necessarily a problem.

If there were no jobs in Europe, these immigrants wouldn't come. So, someone must not want to do the work these immigrants are willing to do. One can't have one's cake, and eat it too, as the saying goes.

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Foofie wrote:

I don't believe I'm just playing with words, but since (correctly, I believe) people refer to the U.S. as a melting pot, why should the U.S. be one of the few melting pots in the world?

In effect, the "problem" with immigrants coming into Europe might mainly be because it is "perceived" as a problem, because European countries like their respective cultures, distilled over a millenia. Or, am I wrong in this opinion? Who says Europe should be ever so continental???

And, before the Holocaust in WWII, didn't the Nazis say they had a "Jewish problem"? I'm saying the word "problem" may be in the eyes of the beholder, and reflects preferences, not necessarily a problem.

If there were no jobs in Europe, these immigrants wouldn't come.

So, someone must not want to do the work these immigrants are willing to do. One can't have one's cake, and eat it too, as the saying goes.

There are asylum seekers (from the many war zones around here) and bogus asylum seekers too. Free housing, free health care, better social services have a lot to do with it also.
Many working immigrants are not resented.
Increase in the numbers of beggars and vagrants (and criminals, as in Italy) is resented, and played on by right-wing activists.

Add differences of religion, culture and mother tongue and you have the well-known "problem". Additionally, unlike America with its population density (wide-open spaces) countries like Britain and Holland are considered by many to be "full".

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McTag wrote:

Additionally, unlike America with its population density (wide-open spaces) countries like Britain and Holland are considered by many to be "full".

From "The Economist: Pocket World in Figures, 2007 edition":

Pop. per sq. km

USA: 31.7
Italy: 190.2
Germany: 230.5
UK: 244.9
The Netherlands: 390.1

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Or in rough terms, the UK has eight times more people per square mile than the USA, and Holland has twelve times more.

I know these figures are misleading, and not particularly useful; immigrants, in common with other groups, are attracted to major centres of population. Nevertheless the differences are stark.

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There is another factor, not yet given the notice that perhaps it deserves. That is the fact that the economies of the European states experiencing the immigration (and the U.S. as well) NEED the labor the immigrants provide. The quality of life for the long-term residents is enhanced - often in little-noticed ways - by the willingness of the immigrants to do hard work, often for low wages, that long-term residents are unwilling to do. Indeed they increasingly dominate the services and agricultural sectors throughout the continent (and the U.S. as well).

The differences with the U.S. are the population density already noted (although the difference, where it matters, is much less than the numbers posted above suggest because we have very wide expanses of unpopulated land), and the tradition here of eventually assimilating such immigrants. Our "long-term" residents are often themselves only a couple of generations away from immigration.

I believe this is also closely associated with our relatively more competitive society and generally less pervasive social services - factors which I believe assist in the economic growth and successful assimilation of immigrants. If I am correct, this presents the Europeans with a difficult dilemma. The extensive welfare and labor market regulation systems that spread across Western Europe during the post war period of growing prosperity now, with ageing populations have become increasingly unsustainable economically. In addition they increase the social tensions associated with the new immigration and slow their economic integration into the country as well.

We have these problems, and the attendant national debate, as well, but to a lesser degree, owing to the differences cited above.

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Good post, georgeob. I think I read a few years ago about the problem in Germany with their aging population, and their inability to sustain their economy. Without immigration, their ratio of the aged to the workers will be so lopsided, their social services will be in total danger of collapse. If I'm not mistaken, they are now trying to cut back on their generous social services. If not now, it will need to come soon.

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In the late 19th century, and early 20th century, when the U.S. had unrestricted immmigration, many immigrants would go to night school upon arriving, to learn English and then be able to obtain citizenship as soon as possible.

Now, these European "immigrants" may not qualify for citizenship in the respective country they immigrated to; I don't know. But, is there any mandated approach to assimilating these immigrants, in at least the language (speaking, reading and writing)?

Just because one is an adult may not mean they do not have some schooling that is needed. It is up to society to make it required.

Mandated education for immigrants would help maintain an immigrant group that functioned better in the respective society. It would also lessen the image that the immigrants are only in the respective country to do the menial jobs, their generation being oftentimes veritable outcasts.

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I don't see it the same way you do, Foofie. Many of the immigrants that came to this country never learned to speak English, but their children did.

Our mother spoke Japanese at home; I saw my sister speak 100 Japanese before she started going to school, but after a few years was profeciant in English.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

I don't see it the same way you do, Foofie. Many of the immigrants that came to this country never learned to speak English, but their children did.

Our mother spoke Japanese at home; I saw my sister speak 100 Japanese before she started going to school, but after a few years was profeciant in English.

Stop already. I admit the Asian and perhaps more so, the Japanese culture, is superior in getting its people to perform admirably in the U.S.

Not everyone has the advantage of being born into a Japanese heritage.

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They come over here ...

... take our jobs, eat our carp and lose all our £50 notes. They even steal our unwanted clothes. But can all that is written about eastern Europeans really be true? Tim Dowling looks at the outrageous claims made about Britain's newest arrivals in today's The Guardian (link to article above).

Quote:

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It may be that many stories about swan eating and tuberculosis are exaggerated, but this from the audit office report to Parliament
(Sept 07)

Quote:

10 Although macro-economic studies show that the economy as a whole benefits from migrant workers, the benefits may not be equally felt in all local areas. Government grants to local public agencies are linked to local population statistics, which do not adequately reflect all local migration, particularly international migration. This is accepted by the Office for National Statistics, and a programme of improvement to the data is under way. However, in the short term it may be that some local areas have experienced population increases through migration that are greater than that for which they receive government grant

In other words they dont know how many there are or where they live. But service providers know all right.

Additionally, though new workers might benefit the economy as a whole, its the employers who are getting most of that benefit by using harder working and cheaper "foreign" labour. Its very simple economics.

Meanwhile the "British workers" which Brown now says he wants for "British jobs" (is this national socialism?) are leaving the country for warmer climes (e.g. Spain France Australia N America) in unprecedented numbers.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

Meanwhile the "British workers" which Brown now says he wants for "British jobs" (is this national socialism?) are leaving the country for warmer climes (e.g. Spain France Australia N America) in unprecedented numbers.

Or trying to to get some work here: today, there were (again) warnings by the local chamber of craftsmen and the polcie bout two British groups trying to fix (one) roofs here and yards (the other).

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I think what exacerbates the perceived concerns in Europe is that few countries have a "melting pot" belief/goal like the U.S. In other words, Europeans may just feel like they've been invaded, as opposed to hosting future families for the respective nation. I could be wrong, but this is my interpretation.

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Foofie wrote:

I think what exacerbates the perceived concerns in Europe is that few countries have a "melting pot" belief/goal like the U.S.

That might be. Especially, since the 'melting pot' took place between 1500 before the USA were founded until the 19th and 20th century.

Honestly, Foofie, any idea from what the name "Anglo-Saxon" derives? (I don't know neither why the Jutes aren't mentioned here.)

In the early 2000's, more than seven million foreign citizens were registered in Germany, and 19% of the country's residents were of foreign or partially foreign descent.
Besides that, 'German' is just the nationality - with numerous 'tribal' varieties.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
I think what exacerbates the perceived concerns in Europe is that few countries have a "melting pot" belief/goal like the U.S.

That might be. Especially, since the 'melting pot' took place between 1500 before the USA were founded until the 19th and 20th century.

Honestly, Foofie, any idea from what the name "Anglo-Saxon" derives? (I don't know neither why the Jutes aren't mentioned here.)

In the early 2000's, more than seven million foreign citizens were registered in Germany, and 19% of the country's residents were of foreign or partially foreign descent.
Besides that, 'German' is just the nationality - with numerous 'tribal' varieties.

Well, fast-forwarding to the modern era, you might agree that the Holocaust was a symtom of not accepting Jews (especially the quite assimilated Reformed Jews of Germany) into the European melting pot. However, while there are those, in the U.S., that don't particularly care for our Hebrew brethren, American Jews are mostly quite assimilated and contributing citizens that are, for the most part, accepted as very much part of the American fabric.

America does have a history of not accepting many groups initially, but after only a few decades each group becomes just another member of the American quilt. That might just be the secret to America's strength.

In other words, for all the smiles at EU meetings, I wonder if there are still atavistic identities that enabled Europe to march to war for the last thousand years. However, in a nuclear age, I suspect Europeans will continue smiling at EU meetings and in the privacy of their homes have a more honest reaction.

And, have a Happy Thanksgiving (the American holiday today that celebrates the early Pilgrims having dinner with Native Americans. A big family holiday/dinner. Sort of like a non-sectarian Christmas dinner.

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