6
   

Immigration and Racism in Britain and USA

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 12:23 pm
Hey I/M/M/C/B, explain to me again how failed states in Africa are responsible for the refusal by christian NGOs to provide condoms or information about condoms in anti-AIDS campaigns.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 12:33 pm
Setanta wrote:
Hey, I/M/M/C/B, explain to again how the reduction in state hospital beds from 550,000 to 90,000 in the period 1955-73 is the vault of activist federal judges.


Don't tell me you're a Stryker...
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 05:34 pm
Which failed states in Africa? There are so many of them, I would not know where to begin. Do you mean Uganda where the Cannibal Idi Amin ruled, or perhaps you are referring to Ethiopia where 20,000 Cubans plus Ethopian troops were fighting wars on three fronts against Eritrea and Somalia, where refugees at one time passed the million mile mark.

But, you may be surprised to find that I did my bit. I sent contributions to the leaders of all the African states so that they could eject the criminals who were preaching against condom use in Africa. I thought I could help but I found out that before my contribution got to the right place, the massive corruption by the uneducated and primitive police forces of those states had eaten up all of my contributions.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 06:05 pm
SierraSong wrote:
Or, it could be that the 'appeasement' policies of the Brits (both public and private sectors) are partly responsible.

But how would that explain that Muslims in other European countries are clearly less inclined to anti-Western attitudes?

You quoted Pipes, who wrote:

Quote:
But British Muslims return the favor with the most malign anti-Western attitudes found in Europe. Many more of them regard Westerners as violent, greedy, immoral, and arrogant than do their counterparts in France, Germany, and Spain. In addition, whether asked about their attitudes toward Jews, responsibility for September 11, or the place of women in Western societies, their views are notably more extreme.

France is discussable, but Germany and Spain dont have particularly harsher policies vis-a-vis Muslims than the Brits do - and yet Muslims there apparently have milder attitudes regarding Western culture, Jews or the place of women than in Britain. How do you explain this if you lay the blame on supposed "appeasement"?

I must admit that I havent read the report yet, but I saw similar characterisations of it as Pipes'. For example, the WaPo wrote:

Quote:
A "deep attitudinal divide" exists between Western and Muslim publics, with Muslims in the Middle East, Asia and Africa more critical of Westerners than vice versa, according to a survey released today. But attitudes are not monolithic, the study found, and a "middle ground" is particularly apparent among European Muslims. [..]

European Muslims, polled separately for the first time, represent a "bright spot," the survey says. Muslims in Spain, Germany and France, which was the scene of riots in predominantly North African and Muslim suburbs last fall, are more inclined than Muslims elsewhere, including Britain, to view non-Muslim Westerners as tolerant, generous and respectful of women. They also see less of a clash of civilizations than non-Muslims and, like Muslims polled in Indonesia, Jordan, Turkey and Egypt, are far more inclined to see being a devout Muslim and "living in a modern society" as compatible.

These are striking results, especially in the face of all the doomsaying about the Islamisation of Europe and the inevitable approach of culture clash cataclysm.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 06:20 pm
Just dipping into the Pew report, here are some graphs that show the attitudinal differences between British Muslims and Muslims elsewhere in Europe:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/253-12.gif

http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/253-13.gif

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3341/hr0yr.gifhttp://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3341/hr0yr.gifhttp://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3341/hr0yr.gifhttp://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3341/hr0yr.gif

Now to be honest, I'm a bit at a loss myself at the difference between Britain on the one hand and other European countries on the other. France in particular, with its recurring wildfires of riots in the suburbs, doesnt have a particularly good name after all, when it comes to race relations.

The example of France might tempt one into suggesting that there is something particularly good (or relatively less-bad) about the French model: accepting everyone who was born in France as true Frenchmen, but expecting assimilation, in particular to the secular state, in return. However, Germany - one of the other countries that apparently turn out to have relatively less hostile Muslims - is traditionally the archetypical example for the opposite model: it was long extremely hard to become a German citizen, the right being based on lineage rather than place of birth, but in return immigrants were until recently left relatively at freedom to live how they wanted.

So what might be a common denominator that sets both and Spain apart from Britain?

I'm speculating, but perhaps it's that it's a mistake in the first place to assume that the kind of government policy automatically determines the outcome. There are other factors at play as well, after all.

For example: countries of origin. In Germany, the largest group of Muslims hails from Turkey. In France, they're most likely to be from Algeria. In Britain, that would be, I guess, Pakistan. That should make a difference. Pakistani culture is very different from Turkish culture. Even if we realise that the labour immigrants that came to Europe were mostly from the most backward (poorest) regions of their respective countries, the most underdeveloped regions in Pakistan are a lot more religiously conservative and insular still than their counterparts in Turkey.

There could be other determinators as well. London, for example, is a hub. A hub of global communication. Exile newspapers are published there, international Muslim organisations have main offices there, it functions as a nerve centre for information, organisation and mobilisation. That should make London's Muslim communities much more vulnerable to outside/global agitators than their relatively more insular counterparts in Germany.

Mind you, German Turks are closely connected to Turkey, reading Turkish newspapers, watching Turkish TV etc; but then, a) Turkish media are mostly secular and b) the Turkish community, in Holland too, seems mostly self-contained at least ethnically, stable in its strong community ties, with relatively little influence from global, pan-Islamic actors. (I'm thinking out loud here, so no links or stats, just my take).

Dutch Moroccans, on the other hand, for example, are characterised by very fragmented community ties and family ties. While among Turks, fathers and figures of authority appear to still wield enough power to keep the community relatively isolated but also restrained, among Moroccans there's a greater sense of unhingedness, especially re young men. Fathers unable to exert authority over their sons like in the old days, Arabic- or Berber-language, home country-oriented community structures that are unable to 'catch' the young men too, and a Dutch society that, as these kids drop out of school and into crime, doesnt even want them, all conspire to create prime targets for radical Islamist agitators posing as ersatz fathers and figures of authority.

So - there's a lot of differences between Muslim groups, between and within European countries, that have nothing to do with the national policy of the government, is what I want to say. But which the government in turn does have to respond to and deal with.

Britain might simply have a harder boat to row, is my impression, with London a magnet for international and global organisation and agitation, and a Muslim population that is both (even) more diverse and, possibly, from especially problematic regions than that in other countries (on that one I'm mostly thinking Northern Pakistan). So you have to take that into account before immediately assuming the findings discredit British policy.

And thats aside from my previous question how someone who blames British "appeasement" (and that includes Pipes when he writes that "The situation in Britain reflects the "Londonistan" phenomenon, whereby Britons preemptively cringe and Muslims respond to this weakness with aggression") would explain the milder disposition of Muslims in other countries that dont have especially harsher policies. (Now, if they'd included Holland and Denmark, the countries with the arguably harshest policies, that would have been interesting.)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 06:37 pm
Finally, this part in the WaPo report about the survey is also interesting. It seems to contradict the notion that Islam in itself is the problem or that, for that matter, the problem is worsening:

Quote:
Indeed, for the second year running, the survey shows increasing opposition among Muslim populations to violence targeting civilians in the name of Islam. About 71 percent of polled Muslim Indonesians said such violence is never justified, compared with 66 percent last year; in Pakistan, the figure was 69 percent, up from 46 percent; Jordan has had the steepest rise in the proportion of people opposed to extremist violence, up from 11 percent last year to 46 percent. Osama bin Laden's standing has also continued to decline since polling last year, most significantly in Jordan, followed by Pakistan.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 06:46 pm
nimh wrote:
Just dipping into the Pew report, here are some graphs that show the attitudinal differences between British Muslims and Muslims elsewhere in Europe:

OK, one more point - again, I havent read the full report, I've only dipped into it, so there might be counterindications in it. But these graphs also seem to put the lie to the notion that the Muslims in Europe are more conservative than those back home - you know, because they've entrenched themselves in the values from when they came here, while their countries in the meantime progressed on. Or because they've "dug in", and taken on a culture of defiance and resistance against the Western culture around them.

That might be true for subsets of European Muslims, but it's apparently not true for European Muslims overall. I mean, compare how European Muslims score, in these two graphs, with the attitudes are in their home countries. One could take these graphs to show that the Muslims in Europe are in fact "Europeanising" according to plan, and developing greater affinity with Western culture the longer they're there.

Hope I'll find the time to dig in deeper later..
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jun, 2006 07:04 pm
I think the US alienated Muslim Americans by treating them as second class citizens after 9-11.

I'm not sure how those feelings have changed during the past couple of years.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 12:34 am
It is obvious that Mr.Nimh is resolutely Anti-American and will report any outrageous poll that reflects poorly on the USA. He may be Muslim himself. He has not revealed that but his unreasoning prejudice against all things American must have a source. I wonder what position Mr. Nimh took in the following case--I am sure that he was outraged because it happened in the God forsaken country of Holland,part of the Netherlands from which Mr, Nimh reports.
quote
**********************
'Islamist' held in Van Gogh case


Mourners have been leaving flowers at van Gogh's home
The man suspected of killing Dutch film maker Theo van Gogh is a suspected radical Islamist with alleged terrorist links, the Dutch authorities say.
The man, aged 26, with dual Dutch and Moroccan citizenship, had "radical Islamic fundamentalist convictions," Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner said.

Van Gogh, who had made a controversial film about Islamic culture, was shot and stabbed in Amsterdam on Tuesday
**************************
end of quote

Mr.Nimh was, I am sure, outraged by the case above. Was he one of those who,like Ward Churchill, said that the little Eichmans in the World Trade Center got what they deserved? His defense of Muslims in the previous posts is a defense which oozes sympathy for the fanatics who espouse the primacy of Islam. Is it also a sign of his disdain for the USA!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jun, 2006 05:02 am
BernardR wrote:
It is obvious that Mr.Nimh is resolutely Anti-American and will report any outrageous poll that reflects poorly on the USA.

Could you please point out where I said anything about the USA whatsoever in any of my above posts about this poll?

Thanks.

BernardR wrote:
Mr.Nimh was, I am sure, outraged by the case above.

I was, of course, you guessed right. I thought Van Gogh was a prick, myself - but his brutal murder was outrageous, unforgivable and deeply alarming.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 04:00 pm
I amhappy to see that Mr. Himh. The "historian" agreed that Mr. Van Gogh should not have been murdered by the Islamo-Fascists.

Despite Mr. Asherman's comment on
Why are you digging up the nonsense about the CIA in World War II at this time

Nimh happily proceeds.

He did not tell us, however, about the sins of the CIA in helping the Soviets in World War II.

The reason that Mr. Nimh did not tellus that is because he would then have to admit to the fact that everyone who has ever studied History knows--Things may be done for expedient reasons when you are in a war!! AND The enemy of your enemy is your friend.

That is why I mentioned the cowardice shown by the leaders of the Netherlands when the Nazis bombed them in World War II. They capitulated/ Now, some WHO WERE THERE, would not have said that the Leaders in the Netherlands were cowards--No, they would have said that they did the right thing under the circumstances. Perhaps they did.


BUT THE HISTORIAN MR. NIMH SETS HIMSELF UP AS JUDGE AND JURY OF THE CIA EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NOT THERE WHEN THE DECISIONS WERE MADE AND KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE RATIONALE BEHIND THOSE DECISIONS.

Another Anti=American diatribe showing "great knowledge" about actions taken by people now dead who are unable to defend themselves.

Europeans regularly ascribe evil motives to the USA which save thier lives in World War I and II. The reason, I believe, is unalloyed ENVY!!!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 05:36 pm
Quote:
Europeans regularly ascribe evil motives to the USA which save thier lives in World War I and II. The reason, I believe, is unalloyed ENVY!!!
you didnt save my life. You didnt save my parents life. You made profit out of war. We paid you. We owe you nothing. You owe us re Afghanistan and Iraq. **** off Bernard you are getting on my
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 05:43 pm
Bernard R - Yes, we know that, you've said much the same in the thread in question. This thread however is about Immigration & Racism in the US and UK, and some other countries have been mentioned too. Could we stay on (that) topic?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jun, 2006 05:46 pm
Bernard wrote-

Quote:
Europeans regularly ascribe evil motives to the USA which save thier lives in World War I and II. The reason, I believe, is unalloyed ENVY!!!


I don't ascribe evil motives to the people of the USA and I most certainly feel no envy towards them. Who would envy a population of males being slowly roasted on a spit by their dear womenfolk.

I don't think American men have any motives other than those a tom-cat on a hot tin roof would have.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 02:09 am
The Historian, Nimh asks:

Bernard R - Yes, we know that, you've said much the same in the thread in question. This thread however is about Immigration & Racism in the US and UK, and some other countries have been mentioned too. Could we stay on (that) topic?

I really don't believe that you have defined your terms, Professor Nimh.

You talk about Immigration and Racism in Britain and the USA.

Why?

Why Britain and the USA/

What is the connection between Immigration and Racism? I have read nothing from you on that?

What is racism? Do you know? I will tell you what racism is.

Racism is "THE DOCTRINE THAT I N H E R E N T DIFFERENCES AMONG THE VARIOUS HUMAN RACES DETERMINE CULTURAL OR INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT USUALLY INVOLVING THE IDEA THAT ONE'S ONE RACE IS SUPERIOR"

I don't think you know what you are talking about, Professor Nimh.

I challenge you to quote a contemporary American RACIST, especially in the goverment that fits the definition above.

Like most Europeans, you know NOTHING about people in the USA. I can point out and document far more European racism and ethnic hate than you can show coming from the USA.

I am sure you will not give me examples of American Racists who fit the definition above, Nimh, because you will find none who are really important or significant!!!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 02:35 am
BernardR wrote:

You talk about Immigration and Racism in Britain and the USA.

Why?

Why Britain and the USA/

What is the connection between Immigration and Racism?


We are on ... page 74, I think, by now here.

I know that A2K wasn't working well for one week.
But before, it did and now as well. At least for me.

Just in case, you can't get to the first post here, I've copied it for you, BernhardR:


http://i5.tinypic.com/16gwj01.jpg
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 02:42 am
Thank You ,Mr. Walter Hinteler, for showing me that my comments were correct.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE POST BY MCTAG WHICH PERTAINS TO RACISM IN THE USA

IMMIGRATION--YES

RACISM--NO

So,I challenge Professor Nimh--The thread reads--Immigration and Racism in BRITAIN AND THE USA.

Show Racism in the USA by leaders there, Professor Nimh. You reminded me to stick to the topic--Now you respond or admit you cannot!!!

You read my challenge, Mr.Nimh. Are you unable to respond? Or are you only good to show people the titles of the threads which you refer to but give no evidence for?

Racism in the USA? Prove it, Professor Nimh!!!!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 09:36 am
nimh, You're trying to discuss a topic that is universally known to be true with an idiot that only sees one side of every coin - Bushmania. All one needs to do is type "immigration and racism in the US," and get over 14 million hits..

Immigration & racism in the U.S.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 09:38 am
Racism in the United States
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

An African-American drinks out of a water cooler designated for use by "colored" patrons in 1939 at a streetcar terminal in Oklahoma City.Racism in the United States has been a major issue in the country since before its founding. Historically dominated by a settler society of religiously and ethnically diverse whites, race in the United States as a concept became significant in relation to other groups. Traditionally, racist attitudes in the country have been most onerously applied to Native Americans, African Americans and some "foreign-seeming" immigrant groups and their descendants.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2006 09:49 am
Book review:

College-level collections with strong holdings in racism studies and ethnic issues would do well to make the 3-volume reference edited by Pyong Gap Min, Encyclopedia of Racism in the United StatesAnybody that can't see the racial issue connected to immigration is an idiot/moron.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 02/12/2025 at 05:08:57