herberts wrote:With that post you've just upset and alienated more than half the membership here...
I doubt it...
You should really take it a little easier on the smileys, btw, it's like watching Sesame Street..
herberts wrote:Okay, nimh - seeing as you're such a hotshot with sourcing statistical information off the web let's see you drag out some of those statistics which show the violence and the racism which comes from the opposite direction.
Nah, no need ... plenty of threads about that already. And everyone already knows what I think about the 7/7 bombers and 9/11 hijackers.
What was up for discussion
here was your assertion that "it's quite apparent this [racist murder] was a one-off psychotic episode". It's bull.
nimh...
Quote:You should really take it a little easier on the smileys, btw, it's like watching Sesame Street..
My apologies. The novelty hasn't worn off yet. I'm new to computers and I'm enjoying a second childhood.
Have you heard
this before... ?
Here...
Quote:Okay, nimh - seeing as you're such a hotshot with sourcing statistical information off the web let's see you drag out some of those statistics which show the violence and the racism which comes from the opposite direction.
nimh...
Quote:Nah, no need ... plenty of threads about that already.
Whoa, hold it right there! I'm not asking you for opinion-pieces in the threads... I'm asking you to balance your research stats with a few items of a
contrary nature in which Anglos and Westerners are the targets of ethnic and racial abuse and violence.
In fact, I believe France, Germany, Britain and several other European nations have actually seen fit to deport a score of imams for having preached to their flock messages of hatred towards the indigenous locals for no other reason than that the locals are not Muslims.
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:Furthermore, I never said the US was causing our probelms in the UK. I said the US was a bigger threat to what is considered British. It is a cultural issue. It may indirectly cause some of the problems here, but that is unfounded; we cannot say that for sure.
All I ever said, was that UK culture is looking more and more like the US culture so therefore it is the US that is causing the most cultural change. Not the immigrants. Not Europe. The US.
It may be splitting hairs to you, but I assure you, it is more along the lines of separating the strands than splitting one individual strand.
You see McDonalds and Starbucks as somehow a more sinister invasion of your sensibilities than Islamic extremism?
At least McTag recognizes that they are among you. That's your dilemma - unhappy, unassimilated, (many) unemployed Muslims that don't want you meddling in their religious affairs and with some 10,000 or more actively supporting Al-Qaeda.
I'd think Starbucks would be the least of your worries.
I would far prefer to have a thousand MacDonalds and Starbucks spread out across my homeland nation than a dozen mosques.
herberts wrote:I would far prefer to have a thousand MacDonalds and Starbucks spread out across my homeland nation than a dozen mosques.
If you were truly patriotic, you wouldn't want either.
And as for Islamic extremists, they're only making minor cultural changes compared to the more major ones being imported from the US. Granted, I dislike them as well and would gladly kick them out if I could.
However, they do not change the fact that the US is a far greater influence on our culture.
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:However, they do not change the fact that the US is a far greater influence on our culture.
That presupposes we have one.
Quote:I would far prefer to have a thousand MacDonalds and Starbucks spread out across my homeland nation than a dozen mosques.
Dont worry, Herberts. McDonalds doesn't need an invitation!
Can't believe you've stuck with this so long. Any highlights ive missed?
Just putting this in here, already posted elsewhere.
Militant Islam is a problem elsewhere too. This can't do Turkey's modernisation efforts much good.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/turkey/story/0,,1777243,00.html
There is a general debate going on at the moment in this country about what constitutes "Britishness" and how/if teaching it could bring about closer social cohesion.
There is an interesting article in today's Guardian on this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1777428,00.html
Rough summary:
Quote:Over the past few months there has been growing evidence of a developing alliance between the British National party and fundamentalist evangelicals. What's interesting is that their passionate liaison has ended in tears.
It all started amicably enough. "We are a secular political party," said BNP spokesman Phil Edwards. "But people are worried at the political correctness of the Church of England and the Islamification of Britain." In response, BNP members helped to set up the "Christian Council of Britain". They even found a reverend to theologise party policy. "The mixing of races challenges the glory of God," said the Rev Bob West.
But fundamentalist Christians are committed to the literal truth of Genesis: that all human beings are descended from Adam and Eve; that the human race is of "one blood". Whereas racists have found it easier to warp the theory of evolution, arguing, as Edwards recently did, "that white people are more highly evolved than blacks". Within weeks of setting up the Christian Council, the alliance was in tatters. "If you don't believe in Darwinian evolution then you are even dafter than you appear," the BNP told the national director of Christian Voice.
What is fascinating about the ill-fated combination of the BNP and Christian Voice is that it demonstrates how resistant Christianity is to all forms of racism. For every bigot wanting to exploit Christianity in the service of racist ideology, there is a Wilberforce or a Tutu reminding Christians of what's in the Bible. "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, for you are all one in Christ Jesus," says St Paul.
In recent weeks the Methodist church has set up a useful website called Countering Political Extremism in which the views of the major churches have been compiled. It's one of the few theological points upon which all churches agree: you cannot be a Christian and a racist.
Mind you, the author is a vicar.
For some reason this reminded me of the old definition of the Church of England as "The Tory (conservative) Party at prayer"
...and to check it, I initially in Freudian error googled "the ruling classes at prayer"
Certainly IMO the established church (in its adherents if not its doctrine) in this country is riddled with racism.
Recently there was huge controversy and viciousness as a black Archbishop of York was nominated and appointed.
Then again, you have a black archbishop... a black bishop in Holland, I dont see that happening any time soon...
Can a vicar live vicariously? (not sure in which thread should I ask this question)
I'm veering geographically off-topic ... but it seems instinctive enough to make a brief detour to Germany, here, too.
Not least of all with one of Herbert's pronouncements in mind. When we posted about the racist murder of a pregnant Turkish woman in Belgium two weeks ago, after all, he accused us of "flog[ging] the story for all it's worth even though it's quite apparent this was a one-off psychotic episode".
Well..
Germany: "The torture of little Kevin"
Different stories in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung of today. The report, "The torture of little Kevin", tells a particularly horrifying one.
It deals with a racist attack on a 12-year old boy. The five perpetrators, themselves between 14 and 19, mistreated him for over an hour. They kicked him, strangled him, punched him in the face, burnt him with a cigarette, and doused him with beer and urine.
It took place in the small village of Pömmelte, 699 inhabitants, near Magdeburg, in the former East-German state of Sachsen-Anhalt.
Kevin and his assailants
The 12-year old boy was born in Germany, and had a German mother, but an Ethiopian father. The couple had split, his mother was in psychiatric care, and the boy lived in a childrens home. He was taking the bus back on 9 January, but when he got out he was followed by the group of four.
16-year old Morton D. yells at him, he'd already harassed him before. Soon the others join in. Leader of the group is Francesco L., a rail builder. The police knows him: he'd already been sentenced for physical violence twice before, and once for wearing extrem-right emblems. He prefers to go around in high black boots with white laces, as right-wing radicals often do.
The newspaper notes an odd detail: Morton, Francesco and their pals, Steven and Kevin W., twins and Dustin G., all have foreign names - but they despise foreigners. Even though there are actually hardly any foreigners living in Pömmelte.
Kicked and strangled
First off, they forced the boy to "admit" he was a foreigner, threatening to "shoot him down" him if he didn't, with Francesco brandishing a gas pistol. Then Kevins head is slammed on to a wooden table. Morton kicks him in the face with his boot. Francesco smashes a bottle into his face. They force the boy to say "Jawohl mein Führer". At the end of the 75 minutes Francesco tries to strangle the boy. When he tries to escape they catch him.
Eventually, Francesco brings him to by the childrens home and tells him not to tell a word to anyone - or they will storm the home and kill everyone. But inside, when the home's director sees his injuries, she informs the police.
Now, in their court case, Francesco was sentenced to three and a half years. Morton is sentenced to two years, though part of it may be changed into probation (is what "zur Bewahrung" means, I think). The twins get one year and seven months probation, respectively. Kevin, the victim, himself says he'd wanted them to get "life".
See: Süddeutsche Zeitung, 23 May 2006, "Die Tortur des kleinen Kevin", p.12
According to tomorrow's Süddeutsche Zeitung, Financial Times Deutschland reports that the prosecution, the Magdeburg prosecution will lodge an appeal. Especially the sentence against Francesco L. is rergarded is to be too low.
source: Sueddeutsche Zeitung (Deutschland-Ausgabe/Germany edition), 24 May, 2006, page 6.
Wow, you're reading tomorrow's paper! I'm behind on you a day!
(I dont usually add page-specific source and stuff, but this time I did cause I wasnt literally translating, I was free-form summarising..)
Wait, I got more.
Kurdish-German Berlin politician beaten up; in hospital
That's not the only story in today's Sueddeutsche. Far more attention than spent on Kevin's fate roughly centres around the story of Giyasettin Sayan, a Kurdish-German deputy for the Left Party in Berlin. She has been elected successive times in her East-German Lichtenberg district, which however also is a bulwark of extreme-right activity.
Last Friday, she was walking in her district when two passers-by yelled "**** Turk" at her and beat her up. She's now in hospital with a brain concussion ("Gehirnerschütterung").
She must have invented it
Politicians from around the city and political spectre have expressed their shock and indignation. But sympathy is not universal: visitors to the online forum of the German Free Democrats (the right-wing liberals) insinuated that she must have jumped before a car to "invent some xenophobic incident"; after all, aren't there elections soon?
Worse, anonymous sources from her own Left Party insinuated to the left-alternative Taz that she might have staged it as well. Yet Sayan is in hospital in fierce pain and can hardly talk, and the state security ("Staatsschutz") believes she suffered a hard beating of her head.
Where foreigners don't dare to go
Left Party colleague Gesine Lötsch, who represents Lichtenberg in German parliament, says it's time to face reality. "There is a small, aggressive scene in Lichtenberg, which instills dreams of fear; many people don't dare to go outside at night."
Timm Köhler of the Mobile Advice Centre against Right Extremism also warns non-whites, skaters and punks against the risk of attacks in Hohenschönhausen, Treptow, Köpenick (all in East-Berlin and relatively 'white'), and Neukölln (the poorest and most multicultural district of the city).
See Süddeutsche Zeitung, 23 May 2006, "Schadenfreude nach dem Überfall", p.2
