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Oil, will it be the last straw for America?

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 09:46 am
cavolina wrote:
McG

You had something to say?


What? You said a joke and I laughed. Thought it was funny. Especially that whole "ripping apart the fabric of this country" stuff... and the fascist comment? Priceless!
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 09:58 am
Quote:
Wednesday :: Apr 26, 2006
Now Even The GOP Wants To Go After The Oil Companies

by Steve Soto
It's not that I think anything will come of it, but I enjoy seeing Republicans call for the tax records of oil companies, and to advocate for the full repeal of all tax breaks and subsidies that were given to the industry in last year's energy bill. It is a little hypocritical for Pete Domenici to call for the industry to lose those breaks, when it was his top aide whom he allowed to write the energy bill to line the pockets of the nuclear energy industry as he was moving back and forth between Domenici's office and the industry itself.

Democrats, it should be noted, also voted in large numbers for the energy bill. But Democrats have been out of power for five years, and are now taking advantage of that fact in blasting the GOP across the country for failing to do anything to diversify this country's energy supplies and make this country more energy conserving and secure. This will be a winning issue for the Democrats this fall if they only hammer it over and over again as an example of how the GOP has sold this country out for private gain over public interest.

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/

Quote:
Sen. Charles Grassley (news, bio, voting record), R-Iowa, the committee's chairman, said senators were concerned about the "record profits and significant executive compensation in the oil and gas industry."

"I want to make sure the oil companies aren't taking a speed pass by the tax man," Grassley said in a statement.

With gasoline prices soaring and oil companies announcing record profits, "it's relevant to know what the real financial picture is for this industry," added Montana Sen. Max Baucus (news, bio, voting record), the panel's ranking Democrat.

Meanwhile, Exxon Mobil Corp., the world's largest oil company, said Thursday that higher oil prices drove first-quarter profit up 7 percent from the prior year. Net income rose to $8.4 billion, or $1.37 per share, in the January-March period from $7.86 billion, or $1.22 per share, a year ago. Oil prices actually fell Thursday after U.S. government data showed motor fuel demand weakening, apparently in response to higher pump prices.

It's highly unusual for the Senate committee to seek corporate tax records. The last time it made such a request to the IRS it involved the tax records of the bankrupt Enron Corp.


source

As a personal comment, I don't think it will be a winning issue for democrats at all since they went along with those tax breaks too. My point in posting it is that while us the consumers have been paying these high prices, the big oil companieis have been profitiing from it with the help of congress. It is not right the whole country is held hostage to those oil companies charging whatever they want and getting those tax breaks. I am all for a competive consumer market, but not unfair consumer market.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 09:59 am
The fact of the matter is, this administration knew many years ago that the supply of oil could not meet the demand, because China and India's economic growth demanded more of this resource. Bushco didn't do anything to aleviate the demand in the US, and Cheney made secret deals with the oil companies (for which we still have no public record), and sat on their respective asses while crunch time finally arrived.

This administration could have taken many steps to reduce the demand on oil such as requiring the increase in mpg on all vehicles - especially SUVs and monster pickup trucks, hybrids, and alternative energy. They didn't do anything. Incompetence.

On top of all that, this administration continued to give oil companies tax breaks amounting to some seven (7) billion dollars even though their profits have been increasing.

They now want to give each driver $100 rebates - a short-term political move that does nothing to aleviate our demand for oil.
More incompetence.

Throw the bums out!
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 10:02 am
Thanks Joe. I get a little hot when I am faced with stubborn ignorance born of some notion that George W is looking out for our interests.

Okie, this economy is not a zero sum game. However, the behavior of some of the companies in this economy points to the fact that they want it to be. If it became a zero sum game, the economy would collapse. It is collapsing in some segments now.

The damage the oil companies are doing to the airlines and trucking are going to be measured in history by the number of people put out of work by greed. You think it is necessary for the oil companies to make profits and I agree. What you are leaving out of the equation is the fact that most of the exploration and drilling costs are already paid for in the annual budget and whats left at the end is money to pay dividend and bonuses. Last year the CEO of one of the oil companies reflected on the serious problem he had. He didn't know how to spend all the money they had made.

The CEOs of oil companies are only interested in one thing: the price of their shares on Wall Street. They equate profit with higher stock prices and higher stock prices mean more money for their stock option and themselves.

What they don't care about is what it does to the rest of the economy. Think GM. What will happen to GM is bankruptcy because they can't sell what they are making. I sell fresh produce. I have seen the cost of shipping produce escalate dramatically pushing prices in the supermarket to record highs. I fly on airplanes. The cost of jet fuel has gone up 259% in a year and a half.

I'll bet that we can find among us hundreds of examples of prices rising because of oil price rises. How many people have stopped buying items they consider unnecessary because of oil price hikes. How many Seniors are back to eating dog food because they can't afford food and heating oil?

There are three segments of this economy that are sailing along at our expense. They are oil, banking (including credit cards) and pharmaceuticals. They are the top three money makers in this economy.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 12:51 pm
Why don't all of you guys invent your own hydrogen car, or solar car, or whatever and make your billions. After all, it should be easy. You are only burning gasoline now because Bush and his oil buddies made you do it, so get with it and show them dirty oil companies a thing or two. Quit your whinin and do something.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 01:15 pm
I did; got rid of my car and started riding a bike and the bus.

Bought a few solar panels.

Started growing a garden.

I don't even care what the environmental effects are, really; I'm healthier, I've lost weight, I eat better, and my bills are drastically lower. The only thing that I've sacrificed is a little of my time, and my preconception that Automobiles are a neccessity of life.

I don't plan on ever going back.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 01:17 pm
oil, the last straw
before the world supply of oil is exhausted , i'm sure new sources of energy will come on-line . those sources may be more expensensive than our current ones , but they might also be less expensive . i don't think anyone knows for sure .
look at the supply of uranium in canada alone . currently only a few mines are activ , but there many mines (example : northern ontario/elliott lake) that have been mothballed and could be brought back on-line , probably within a couple of years .
personally , the thought of uranium mining and nuclear energy scares me a bit . is it really worse than the threat greenhouse gases from fossil-fuel burning power-stations ? i don't know .
i do think mankind will likely to continue to struggle on for a while yet .
perhaps ther'll be a "big bang" ? ... hmmm ... don't know ... yet .
hbg

i acn supply some links if anyone is interested in pursuing this
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 04:09 pm
okie wrote:
Why don't all of you guys invent your own hydrogen car, or solar car, or whatever and make your billions. After all, it should be easy. You are only burning gasoline now because Bush and his oil buddies made you do it, so get with it and show them dirty oil companies a thing or two. Quit your whinin and do something.


Okay and thanks for the encouragement. Oh, and good on you, Cycloptichorn. Meanwhile, I've written my Senators and told them to leave gas prices alone. That's right. Leave them at $3.00 a gallon or close to it. There's nothing that brings about conservation like fat prices. Market forces, which the oil companies say control the price, will come into line with reality soon enough. (Of course, that may mean $4.00 a gallon but hey.)
I've also e-mailed the White House and told them to cut out the fooling around with the Strategic Reserve (they were going to pass on twenty millions barrels of crude this summer -that's almost one day's supply-big whoop and a photo-op) and to take the $100.oo the Senate wants to give us and send it to the Democratic Re-Election Committee (which is where it's going anyway, so they would save me a stamp.)

Meanwhile, the message to the rock-ribbed know-it-alls who are in control is clear, despite their reticence to look to science and engineering for answers (instead of God's word, for example) that's all we have left. We need a lot more investment, GOVERNMENTAL investment, into electrically powered vehicles, into power production through solar and wind, and ...wait for it... careful examination of fusion nuclear power.

The present adminstration's plan to fight over every last drop of oil is a recipe for world wide disaster, but it's the only view they have.

We have, by some estimates, until 2020 before oil and oil-related products (that's your oil-shale and oil-sands too) start unrecoverable declines worldwide We have been in a downward glidepath since early in the 1970's, in 2020 it becomes a dive.

Oh, and Al Gore said as much in the year 2000, but Republicans were too busy sneering instead of governing. They did cut taxes though and ended the financing of the largest alternate fuels project since Rumsfeld killed the last one during the Reagan years. Just think. If Don hadn't done that we might be well on the way to energy independence by now instead of losing two kids a day in Iraq.

Joe(I also asked that he be retired.)Nation
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 05:17 pm
Joe

Okie likely isn't old enough to remember the othr iterations of Rummy and the other Republicans who were so closely aligned with the oil companies that progress was impossible.

You are quite right about looking to fusion. We talked about it those many years back in that hole in the middle of the oil patch. We had the money before Reagan showed up and we had a President in Carter who was pushing alternative fuels and conservation.

Okie doesn't get it yet, but the necessity to move from green house gas producing fuels will become a reality when the last of the Greenland ice shelf falls into the Atlantic and the Gulf Stream shuts down. About that time, the ice will begin to form, the weather will get cold and the next ice age will be upon us. But then, Okie being a Bushite will tell us that it was God's will to punish the buttf***ers and that it had nothing to do with Global Warming.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Apr, 2006 06:10 pm
While running down the beach this morning, I heard about this website:
Check this out... .

Joe(see you later)Nation
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Apr, 2006 07:49 pm
cavolina wrote:
Joe

Okie likely isn't old enough to remember the othr iterations of Rummy and the other Republicans who were so closely aligned with the oil companies that progress was impossible.

You are quite right about looking to fusion. We talked about it those many years back in that hole in the middle of the oil patch. We had the money before Reagan showed up and we had a President in Carter who was pushing alternative fuels and conservation.

Okie doesn't get it yet, but the necessity to move from green house gas producing fuels will become a reality when the last of the Greenland ice shelf falls into the Atlantic and the Gulf Stream shuts down. About that time, the ice will begin to form, the weather will get cold and the next ice age will be upon us. But then, Okie being a Bushite will tell us that it was God's will to punish the buttf***ers and that it had nothing to do with Global Warming.


I thought environmentalists hated anything to do with nuclear, such as fission or fusion? I am old enough to remember President Carter and his "Synthetic Fuel Corp." Beyond spending alot of money, billions I think, I don't recall anything that was accomplished? When you attempt to force a technology to work that is not commercially competitive, it is essentially a waste of money. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Government has spent plenty on alternative fuels research. Private enterprise has done the same thing. When and if an alternative fuel becomes technically and economicly feasible, it will occur, witness hybrid cars, not built and marketed by government, but by automobile companies. I see far more innovation coming out of private companies, evil corporations, than I do out of government.

So the next ice age will be brought on by global warming?
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 07:56 am
Okie

I was gonna let Joe answer this one but I couldn't resist.

In 1957, the Ruskies sent a shot across our bow. It was called Sputnik. Three years later Kennedy promised to send a man to the Moon and bring him back safely. It was done.

Carter may have wanted to produce synthetic oil, but the politics of Big Oil would never have let that happen. I think he may have spent some money on initial research, but billions is strethhing it by billions.

As an educated man you must know that a research project like synthetic oil takes years to start. The criteris must be determined. The scientists must be picked. The labs selected and so forth. I recall none of this getting done during a contentious presidency.

As for nuclear energy, as an educated man you of course know that fusion is generally clean and starts with the elements in a drop of water. The hydrogen molecules when fused together make that seriously funny gas called helium. Environmentally, pretty safe stuff.

The reality is that money for this research, which could make energy both abundant and practically free, is almost non-existent. An educated man like yourself probably could elucidate the reason for that oversight, couldn't you?

As for environmentalists, you, as an educated man, must know that when we have fouled our environment beyond repair, we have no other place to go.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 08:01 am
Okie

One thing I left out, when the last iceage occurred, evidence point to the fact that the Gulf Stream had shut down. This led to a cooling of the Northern Hemisphere. I am sure that there are references to this phenomenon, and I am certain there are some on this forum who know where to find them. I believe that one of them is discovery.org or.com
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 09:27 am
cavolina wrote:
Okie

I was gonna let Joe answer this one but I couldn't resist.

In 1957, the Ruskies sent a shot across our bow. It was called Sputnik. Three years later Kennedy promised to send a man to the Moon and bring him back safely. It was done.


Huge difference between going to the moon and producing synthetic oil in the open market. You are comparing apples and oranges. There is no doubt that synthetic oil can be produced, just not at a profit. Going to the moon was never a profit making venture. There are some things appropriate for government to do, such as organizing a military to defend itself, which is in fact one of the few things authorized by the constitution, but the military is never a profitable venture. And when sending man to the moon becomes profitable, or efficient, I doubt the government would be capable of doing it. It will likely require a private company to achieve it, and it seems like there is some news along those lines?

Quote:
Carter may have wanted to produce synthetic oil, but the politics of Big Oil would never have let that happen. I think he may have spent some money on initial research, but billions is strethhing it by billions.

Another stupid statement. Big Oil has no power to keep anything from happening that is economically feasible. Demagoguery is all you are spouting out here with no facts whatsoever that are tied to reality. Big Oil would love to produce oil from coal or something else that is cheaper than buying it from the Arabs. Big Oil owns alot of coal reserves in fact.

Quote:
As an educated man you must know that a research project like synthetic oil takes years to start. The criteris must be determined. The scientists must be picked. The labs selected and so forth. I recall none of this getting done during a contentious presidency.

The truth is the research failed to come up with a viable, economical solution. That is why it never resulted in success. The technology is still out there and is being investigated, and as conventional oil becomes higher in price due to demand and higher production costs, some of these things will enter the market place. This is not complicated to figure out. That is why Canadian oil production from tar sand mining has now entered the market. It is being done by private companies.

Quote:
As for nuclear energy, as an educated man you of course know that fusion is generally clean and starts with the elements in a drop of water. The hydrogen molecules when fused together make that seriously funny gas called helium. Environmentally, pretty safe stuff.

The reality is that money for this research, which could make energy both abundant and practically free, is almost non-existent. An educated man like yourself probably could elucidate the reason for that oversight, couldn't you?

As for environmentalists, you, as an educated man, must know that when we have fouled our environment beyond repair, we have no other place to go.


I don't think you are correct on this. Research into fusion has been ongoing for a long time on many fronts by many nations. There are problems with it, and it is doubtful anything commercial could come out of this for at least 40 years according to one website that I looked at. Again, you need to look at reality here. Perhaps additional research money should be looked at, that is a matter of judgement in terms of capability of spending the research money wisely over and above the programs already well along in the process. I would need to look into this more to educate myself on the history of the research, but certainly I know that we have not ignored this possible energy source at all. I can remember research into fusion going back 30 and 40 years ago at least.

The argument of fusion being the magic bullet is a bit of new argument by liberals like yourself, unless I've missed out on this. Usually, its been solar, wind, biomass, or something else, but perhaps you've awakened to reality enough that you need something better than those now for an immediate fix to the problem.

My philosophy is: the free market is the answer. Necessity is the mother of invention. Have confidence in the free market and the ability of man to invent and discover, over and above and beyond what any government is capable of doing in the marketplace. The key for us is to devote ourselves to good educations and hard work, which will avail us the best chance at success. Government has not built the success in this country; it has only provided the appropriate atmosphere for the people to be successful. From the cotton gin, to Henry Ford, to Bill Gates, and the literally thousands of entreprenuers and inventors, there is no corporation that can keep a genie in the bottle if the genie is in the bottle.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 09:33 am
Okie

If you believe that this economy reflects anything close to a "Free Market" then I have a real deal for you. There's a bridge between Manhattan and Brooklyn that I have been trying to get rid of for some time. Make me an offer.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 09:37 am
cavolina wrote:
Okie

One thing I left out, when the last iceage occurred, evidence point to the fact that the Gulf Stream had shut down. This led to a cooling of the Northern Hemisphere. I am sure that there are references to this phenomenon, and I am certain there are some on this forum who know where to find them. I believe that one of them is discovery.org or.com


Sounds like speculation, such as which came first, the chicken or the egg. Lots of "ifs," some of which we probably are not even aware of.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 09:38 am
cavolina wrote:
Okie

If you believe that this economy reflects anything close to a "Free Market" then I have a real deal for you. There's a bridge between Manhattan and Brooklyn that I have been trying to get rid of for some time. Make me an offer.


Concerning the bridge, your point is....?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 09:47 am
Quote:
Concerning the bridge, your point is....?


... that the 'free market' isn't as free as you make it out to be.

Companies and corporations have a great interest in killing off competing technologies, either through legislation, legal action, marketing, or purchase of said technology.

Therefore, it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Oil (let us say energy companies) greatly fear losing their stranglehold on the US economy, and will act accordingly to retain control. This stifles innovation and hurts progress.

Also, the oil companies have hurt progress by essentially lying to the public about oil reserves, pricing, strategies, etc.; through manipulation of information, the true effects of oil usage are kept away from the public consciousness. They downplay any negative effects of what they do, which in turn leads to less attention and money being spent on cleaner and saner alternatives.

Not to mention the effect that Oil lobbies have had on stifling the increase of public transportation here in America. All in all, there doesn't exist some perfect 'free market' as you state. And only a fool would believe there ever was such a thing.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 09:48 am
Okie

It a joke of the same magnitude as your joke about a free market. If you think that the oil companies can't influence public and private policy. Money talks and they have it.

There are several countries doing some research on fusion. It is neither a conservative nor a liberal policy it is a scientific fact that if developed could cause a shift in the lives of the entire planet.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 10:03 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Companies and corporations have a great interest in killing off competing technologies, either through legislation, legal action, marketing, or purchase of said technology.
Cycloptichorn


Cite one example of a corporation "killing off a competing technology" with facts.
0 Replies
 
 

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