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Oil, will it be the last straw for America?

 
 
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 12:00 pm
I have wondered since I left a job with a large oil company in the East, what it would take to wake the people of America to the fact that they face emminent distruction as a nation if we continue our current energy policy?

I don't know what one can say or do to alert the masses to the fact that the price of a gallon of gasoline or a gallon of home heating oil is only the tip of the iceberg.

In my daily routine it is common for me to move produce from one end of the country to another. Every time there is an increase in gasoline and diesel fuel, there is an increased cost to the truckload of fruit or vegetables. The additional cost is passed on to the receiver of the shipment who, in turn, passes on the increase to his customer and on and on until you pay for it at the grocery store.

Food, not being an optional item for most families, costs more. The more it costs the less wealth each of us can accumulate and the more wealth is passed to the oil companies. At some point in time, the choice will be between eating and paying your bills. Yes! I am carrying the argument to the extreme because the danger is a second depression in less than 100 years.

An oil company earned nearly 10 billion in profits last year. That was by their own admission a huge increase over the year before. It is difficult to explain, because no one hears, how it is that they increased their profits so dramatically at a time of increasing cost of supplies. Perhaps the simpliest answer is they gouged the American public!

The short course on the oil company plan to own it all is available to anyone interested. Just ask.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 12,552 • Replies: 306
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Sonny5790
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 01:47 pm
I agree, but I don't think it will destroy our country. More people take public transportation than ever. And their's ways to save oil with electric/oil running car's. I'm sure their's people making oil-efficent, or something along the lines to oil. There's reserve's to last the coutnry, it make be more expensive but it will not destroy our country.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 02:43 pm
Sonny5790 wrote:
I agree, but I don't think it will destroy our country. More people take public transportation than ever. And their's ways to save oil with electric/oil running car's. I'm sure their's people making oil-efficent, or something along the lines to oil. There's reserve's to last the coutnry, it make be more expensive but it will not destroy our country.



I am assuming that you are living in an Eastern City where Public transportation is available. Out here in the West, there is little public anything. Consider California the country's most populated state. I has minimal train and bus available to move it's 33 or 34 million people. That's why it is so polluted. Everyone drives their own car.

As for destroying this country, look at our economy. We have huge debt, a diminishing middle class, very few real manufacturing jobs left, an increasing population, housing costs are prohibitive, and energy cost increases permeate this fragile economy.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 02:56 pm
Quote:
I have wondered since I left a job with a large oil company in the East, what it would take to wake the people of America to the fact that they face emminent distruction as a nation if we continue our current energy policy?


Quote:
An oil company earned nearly 10 billion in profits last year. That was by their own admission a huge increase over the year before. It is difficult to explain, because no one hears, how it is that they increased their profits so dramatically at a time of increasing cost of supplies. Perhaps the simpliest answer is they gouged the American public!


Well, is it our energy policy or evil oil companies?

Maybe the oil companies were in the right place at the right time. Your own argument says that Americans are not aware of how their lifestyles and consumption are leading to their ruin, then you blame oil companies. Lots of people are making ridiculous profits by selling their homes in hot real estate markets. Are they "gouging the American public" or are they in the right place at the right time? The true value of their homes certainly did not double in a year, but no one is calling for congressional investigations into Americans' real estate profits.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 02:56 pm
cavolina, You are right on. People are just to afraid to think about it. But the sooner a dialogue is started on the most depressing subjects the better. We should have started talking about replacing oil a long time ago.

The oil copanies are Multi-national corperations so I don't even consider them as real Americans. Or at least I know when the **** hits the fan they will far away from it and very cofortable and we will be left with helping eachother. Then we will see who the real Americans are which are the people who live, work and raise there kids here, regular people, not billionaire oil executives.

We need solutions and ideas.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 03:03 pm
Quote:
http://images.thetimes.co.uk/images/DRIVINGHeadBGLogo_1.gif

Oil mogul on £82,000 a day sparks anger

Sarah Baxter, Washington
April 16, 2006


EVER since the soap opera Dallas, the exploits of Texas oilmen have fascinated America. But the disclosure that one of oil’s most powerful figures earned $144,000 (£82,000) a day — that’s £57 a minute— for his time at the helm of the world’s biggest oil company, has prompted a row about whether corporate fat cattery has been taken to new heights.

Lee R Raymond, the recently retired chairman and chief executive of Exxon Mobil — owners of the Esso chain in Britain — was paid more than £391m from 1993 to 2005, according to figures released last week. It dwarfs the salaries of other high earners in the oil business. Last year alone he made more than £228m.

With the cost of a gallon of petrol once again soaring at the pumps, critics claimed he was being rewarded for the easy profits from skyrocketing oil prices.

“Exxon was there long before Mr Raymond was there and will be long after he leaves,” Charles Elson, the director of the John L Weinberg Centre for Corporate Governance told The New York Times. “Yet he received Rockefeller returns without taking the Rockefeller risk.”

Raymond, 67, the son of a Midwestern railwayman, retired in December from his executive office known as the “God pod” in Irving, Texas, after a lifetime with Exxon. He presided over record profits, a soaring share price and a company which became America’s largest corporation. He was rewarded royally as a result.

In his final year with the company, Raymond earned almost £11.4m in salary and bonuses. He made £12m on share options he exercised and he was awarded shares worth £114m.

He also has share options worth almost £40m and a £56m pension that was paid as a lump sum.

Famous for the stingy way in which he ran Exxon, cutting costs at every opportunity, he worked from the fortress-like Exxon headquarters beneath a painting of a ferocious-looking tiger.

While rival oil companies such as BP and Shell began to invest heavily in renewable sources of energy Raymond, who has a doctorate in chemical engineering, remained sceptical about global warming and argued that oil would always be the company’s focus — although recently he has softened his stance and said that it will work on new technology to cut emissions from cars.

American consumer groups were furious at the size of his pay after recent sharp rises in petrol prices. “He served his stockholders well and the American public poorly,” said Mark Cooper of the Consumer Federation of America.

Despite his astronomical remuneration, Raymond, who prided himself on his low profile in the press, has never been known for high living or extravagance.

Although Raymond holds the pay record in the oil business, other executives have earned more in a year. Apple once paid Steve Jobs, its founder, $775m (£442m) and Michael Eisner, former head of Walt Disney, received $577m (£330m). Both were mainly in the form of share options.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2136358,00.html


"No, no, no, you've got it wrong; you're supposed to be angry at the ARABS for high gas prices. Arabs. ARABS! Hate THEM!"
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 03:53 pm
Engineer, I agree that people can and have made a killing on the sale of real estate. But the difference is that in the face of rising costs, the oil caompanies made ever escalating profits. The picture presented is all wrong.

In most businesses, the rising cost of supplies is passed on to the customer as rising prices. In the oil business the multiplier (markup from processing) has been in my experience 7 times the cost of a barrel. So whatever a barrel costs, the products made from that barrel sell for 7 times that cost.

When oil was regulated here ($6 at the well head) a barrel converted to $42. Gasoline at the pump was about .22 cent in 1963 when i started driving. So you can see that the higher the cost for a barrel of oil the higher the profit.

It is not the same as real estate gain. It is highway robbery (sic) and not luck or any other factor. A captive market, a great multiplier, and ever escalating crude costs.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 07:03 pm
Quote:
As for destroying this country, look at our economy. We have huge debt, a diminishing middle class, very few real manufacturing jobs left, an increasing population, housing costs are prohibitive, and energy cost increases permeate this fragile economy.


WOW! Sounds like a big collapse coming up if we stick to the same old Republican ways.

Well if a disaster does befall us there's always Bill and Hillary to blame.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 07:25 am
Xingu

Too Late! Billary are long gone. This one is with the people who created it.

But there is truth in what you say. The ripple effect across our economy is far more serious than anyone seems to want to address. Truckers, the lifeline of the Produce industry, are falling by the wayside. One by one they are parking their rigs and going home. Costs are driving them out.
Even Willie Nelson, the country/western singer, is trying to help by producing fuel from alternative sources and is selling it at a truck stop south of Dallas. No laugh!

I was a serviceman from 1967-1971 along with my friend Joe Nation. Hi, Joe, long time no come see. We were in uniform because southeast asia had lots of resourses. The south china sea in particular has lots of. you guessed it, oil.

Iraq, has oil. China needs oil and Iraq was planning on trading in Euros when it was released from sanctions as it would have been when our contention that it had WMD was debunked. This would have meant we, the oil companies that had a death grip on our government that is, would have haad to compete with China fro Iraqi oil.

Iran is next. they have oil. We want oil. Bush doesn't like them. Are you ready for nukes. We don't have the ground forces to fight another longterm war.

I think it is serious!
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 07:39 am
ttp://community.middlebury.edu/~scs/maps/US%20EIA,%20South%20China%20Sea%20Tables%20and%20Maps.htm

This is a link to a site that bears witness to what I said about our presence in southeast asia.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 08:57 am
cavolina wrote:
In most businesses, the rising cost of supplies is passed on to the customer as rising prices.


I disagree with this basic premise. The price customers pay is based on supply and demand. A good example of this is the airline industry. Their costs were going up, but they could not pass on those costs. Rising airfare led to more people driving or low cost competitors. Soda is another good example. Coke and Pepsi would love to raise prices, but when a 2 liter goes over a dollar, people stop buying, so you end up seeing in on sale for 99 cents every time you go to the store. It's been that price for over a decade. Your seven times multiplier is probably a good rule of thumb based on assumptions that supply can exceed demand. If the world's oil producers can easily jack up the flow, then everything is stable. It is apparent that this is increasing not true. The Saudis do not seem able to increase flow sufficiently to balance the market and provide stability. Or maybe they are doing it on purpose and that would support your point, but not that US companies are gouging.

So if prices are driven by supply and demand, where are we today? There is more demand today, both from the ever voracious US market or from rapidly growing economies in Asia. Add to that production upsets in Iraq and Niger and the occasional weather related hit in the Gulf and the supply looks questionable as well. It makes sense that prices are going up and that those who own the supply will do well in that market. In this, it is exactly like real estate. Fixed or decreasing supply, increasing demand -> big profits for sellers and pain for buyers. Real estate is not going up because the owners are passing on expenses.

I agree with your original premise about energy policies. I believe the way for us to get out from under this cycle is to:

- Develop a reasonable and consistent energy policy for the country based on reduction of consumption and developing other sources of energy.
- Raise awareness of the population on the importance and impact of energy consumption.
- Institute policies that reward those who save and penalize those who consume excessively.

What I don't support is the red herring that oil companies are evil and are responsible for our problems. We are responsible for our problems. We did it. These prices are due to our demand for gas and oil, our SUVs, our heated outdoor swimming pools, our houses with the AC at 68 degrees in the summer. Everyone is looking for a scapegoat instead of looking in the mirror.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 09:20 am
As for Pepsi and Coke you model is correct. As for oil, the only place that supply and demand works is on the spot market.

Again, to the oil companies, the cost of a barrel is academic. They charge what they choose for the finished product because there is no competition. look at the price of gasoline in your city. Is it different from one station to another? I don't think so.

If the oil companies choose to charge $5 a gallon, we'd pay it. Whether that was a fair price wouldn't matter. My complaint is that it isn't a fair price. $1 a gallon isn't a fair price when a company, in a time of war, is making record profits.

The disconnect between rising cost in some businesses that cannot raise prices, as in your example of beverages, and the oil companies that can raise prices with impunity is the key to understanding how badly the oil companies are ripping us off and have been ever since they started importing a majority of oil used in this country to get around the government imposed fixed price for domestic crude.
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engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 10:46 am
Actually, gas stations in town do have different prices. In places where there is little competition, the prices are noticably higher than where two or three stations are nearby. It's practically right out of free enterprise class. There are also several chains here that buy from whatever producers will give them the lowest price. One day you are getting Exxon, the next BP. They tend to keep the prices down everywhere. Once again, right out of free enterprise class.

Back to oil companies. If oil companies could charge $5/gallon, why aren't they doing it right now? Why did they choose to charge $1/gallon from 1984 to 2004? Twenty years without a price increase in a world where they could charge whatever they want? What incredible restraint! You would think that they would at least have charged enough so that they would not have had to cut back on their exploration activities.

Oil companies make convienent villians. Record profits and high CEO pay allow politicians to scapegoat them and shift attention away from their own cowardice in not making the hard energy decisions required to put our country back on course. Rather than spit vitrol at them, we should be working towards policy that reduce our dependance on their product.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 11:49 am
I think we agree that alternative energy is the answer.

I believe that oil companies are not the last bastion of free enterprise.
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engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 12:33 pm
cavolina wrote:
I think we agree that alternative energy is the answer.

I believe that oil companies are not the last bastion of free enterprise.


(Shakes hands) Deal. Smile
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 12:41 pm
Gulp! Try $4.50!

Brooklyn gas station floors it

BY JONATHAN LEMIRE and RICH SCHAPIRO
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS


Motorist looks in stunned silence at $4.50 pump price at Brooklyn gas station.

With pump prices rising fast, a gas station under the Brooklyn Bridge took a quantum leap into outrageousness - charging a jaw-dropping $4.50 a gallon!
That's what the Gulf Station on Old Fulton St. in Brooklyn Heights was charging credit card customers for a gallon of premium yesterday.

A gallon of regular gas was no bargain, either, at $4.14 for cash or $4.26 on plastic.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/410113p-346997c.html
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 12:52 pm
At $4.50/gal, I join Cyclopichorn on the bycyle commute, at least in fair weather.

Ahmend Zaki Yemani was right. "The stone age didn't end for lack of stone." And Zaki had a very keen sense of just how much the market would bear.
0 Replies
 
cavolina
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 01:44 pm
Some time ago I was starting to write a book about my observations of the economic changes that have occurred in this country between the time I started High School at Fordham Prep in the Bronx in 1959 and now.

Engineer doesn't subscribe to the theory that these changes were the direct result of the cost of energy. I do. I have seen gasoline go from 30 cents to one dollar in weeks. I have seen home heating oil go from 42 cents a gallon to $1.42 over night. I worked fro an oil company at the time.

I don't know how many of you were there in the early 70's when oil embargos were fashionable, but I was and I can attest to the fact that the effect of the rise in oil prices and the beginning of the fall of our culture are joined.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 08:33 pm
cavolina wrote:
... Engineer doesn't subscribe to the theory that these changes were the direct result of the cost of energy. I do. ...

I don't know how many of you were there in the early 70's when oil embargos were fashionable, but I was and I can attest to the fact that the effect of the rise in oil prices and the beginning of the fall of our culture are joined.


Sigh. I didn't say anything about energy costs driving all the changes in our culture, but you're right, I don't subscribe to that theory. I do believe that costs in general do drive our behavior and energy costs are part of that. Cheap energy in our country has allowed the SUV culture to exist while expensive energy in Europe has promoted a culture of small, efficient cars and more acceptance of nuclear power. I do remember the oil embargo of the 70's and being shocked at 50 cent/gallon gas. I also remember what happened after that. Everyone was buying small, gas efficient cars, taking public transportation to work, saving fuel. If anything, it seems that the "fall of our culture" started with cheap oil. The price of oil stayed steady for 20 years while average income rose. On an inflation adjusted basis, oil was cheaper in 2004 than in 1974. We've been spoiled. Is your contention that our society started to fail due to one gas spike in the 70's and that more than two decades of completely flat oil prices could not fix the damage?
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 10:06 pm
Oil belongs to the community as it is a natural resource. Exxon did not create the oil. They just found it. The process of natural resource extraction needs further examination.
0 Replies
 
 

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