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Iran Air Strikes Growing in Probability

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 09:47 am
oralloy wrote:

Really? I heard that construction was halted after Dolphin sub #3, either because of finances, or because of opposition from the German Green Party.


The only objection by the Green (when they were still part of the governing coalition) was regarding the possibilty of nuclear euipment.

The delivery was approved by the former SPD/Green government last years .... and I saw the one (most probably the first to be delivered) sub with my own eyes ...
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jul, 2006 11:26 am
oralloy wrote:
I was thinking of a raid to briefly capture the whole country.
Is that what they teach at West Point? Really that is ridiculous...you may wish to rec onsider.

I bet there was some American general somewhere at the height of the cold war who wanted to briefly capture the Soviet Union.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 02:13 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
oralloy wrote:
>>I was thinking of a raid to briefly capture the whole country.
>Is that what they teach at West Point? Really that is ridiculous...you may wish to reconsider.


I'm sure West Point would say to just drop the nuke.

But it is a particularly dirty nuke. And if you think a groundburst produces a fallout problem, having a nuke go off 10 feet underground so that the fireball comes into contact with lots and lots of dirt will produce fallout on a much worse scale than any ordinary groundburst.

In my view, seizing the entire country for maybe a week and blowing up all their nuclear facilities from the inside is much more environmentally sound.


But my first choice is to avoid war in the first place. Instead, we should withdraw from international arms-control agreements and share our nuclear weapons knowledge with Israel, like we do with England.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 06:26 am
Quote:
But my first choice is to avoid war in the first place. Instead, we should withdraw from international arms-control agreements and share our nuclear weapons knowledge with Israel, like we do with England.


Eww...goody. We'll do a springtime product-rollout. Chrome fins and a faux Bugatti grill for that subtle hint of fifties 'gonna leave you in the dust, you girly-man' menace.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 06:45 am
oralloy wrote:
In my view, seizing the entire country for maybe a week and blowing up all their nuclear facilities from the inside is much more environmentally sound.


This is so far into the realm of fanatasy that it's hard to know where to begin. Where do you intend to launch your attack from? Afghanistan? Then we can march through the deserts and mountains that killed more than half of Alexander's army when he returned from the subcontinent. Through the Zaros Mountains? As this map from the United States Military Academy demonstrates, the Iran-Iraq war swirled around Basra because there is no plausible way to drive over the mountains, and the only reasonable objective was to destroy the Persians' ocean terminals for petroleum. But you propose "seizing the entire country for maybe a week . . ." I say you're militarily clueless. Invading Iran would make the invasion of Iraq look like a stroll in the park.

Invading Iran would involve a ground attack over some of the worst terrain in the world. This won't be a case of having the armored columns lined up in Kuwait with the motors running, waiting for a signal to roar across the Syrian Desert to Baghdad--and even that turned in to a nightmare at the river crossing at An-Nahsiriya. An air-drop into the central Iranian plateau would involve a massive operation with a high potential for casualties in days which will be multiples of the casualties we've suffered in Iraq in years. Not only is this an unpopular government which will collapse if attacked, attacking the Persians will very likely rally the majority of the population to the support of the government.

That is the most "Twilight Zone" statement i've seen on this subject. It is either demonstrative of incredible ignorance of the military problems intailed in an invasion of Iran, or of complete disregard for the lives of those who would be involved.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 06:55 am
oralloy wrote:
But my first choice is to avoid war in the first place. Instead, we should withdraw from international arms-control agreements and share our nuclear weapons knowledge with Israel, like we do with England.


I suppose, it's the other way round: share with Britain the knowledge as done with Israel - and Britain would really be glad to know what's going on in the "secret" US-facilities as well in their country as well, I'm sure.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 08:08 am
Perhaps this is a good moment to revisit Dick Cheney's 2002 statement making the case for war...

Quote:
"Extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of jihad. Moderates throughout the region would take heart, and our ability to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process would be enhanced."
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 08:32 pm
And another argument for springtime-fresh nukes all over the place...
India warns Pakistan over terror

Quote:
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has said that Pakistan needs to curb terrorism if the peace process between the two countries is to make progress.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5180028.stm
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 08:44 pm
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2145699#2145699

Iran threatens Israel if war escalates. MSNBC.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 08:57 pm
Setanta wrote:
oralloy wrote:
In my view, seizing the entire country for maybe a week and blowing up all their nuclear facilities from the inside is much more environmentally sound.


This is so far into the realm of fanatasy that it's hard to know where to begin. Where do you intend to launch your attack from? Afghanistan? Then we can march through the deserts and mountains that killed more than half of Alexander's army when he returned from the subcontinent. Through the Zaros Mountains? As this map from the United States Military Academy demonstrates, the Iran-Iraq war swirled around Basra because there is no plausible way to drive over the mountains, and the only reasonable objective was to destroy the Persians' ocean terminals for petroleum. But you propose "seizing the entire country for maybe a week . . ." I say you're militarily clueless. Invading Iran would make the invasion of Iraq look like a stroll in the park.

Invading Iran would involve a ground attack over some of the worst terrain in the world. This won't be a case of having the armored columns lined up in Kuwait with the motors running, waiting for a signal to roar across the Syrian Desert to Baghdad--and even that turned in to a nightmare at the river crossing at An-Nahsiriya. An air-drop into the central Iranian plateau would involve a massive operation with a high potential for casualties in days which will be multiples of the casualties we've suffered in Iraq in years. Not only is this an unpopular government which will collapse if attacked, attacking the Persians will very likely rally the majority of the population to the support of the government.

That is the most "Twilight Zone" statement i've seen on this subject. It is either demonstrative of incredible ignorance of the military problems intailed in an invasion of Iran, or of complete disregard for the lives of those who would be involved.



I didn't say it was my first choice; I said I found it preferable to dumping lots of radioactive fallout all over eastern Iran, most of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and the northern half of India.

My first choice remains a non-military option.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jul, 2006 09:32 pm
The peace process would be a lot easier without the Palestinians screwing it up every chance they got.
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Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jul, 2006 07:49 pm
self edited
self edited
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 02:07 am
The Palestinians are irrational people. All that Israel wants is to be left alone. The militant Fascist Islamists, who represent only a small part of Islam, cannot abide Israel because they are not Muslims and the Hezbollah lives only to try to destroy Israel.

The rest of the world may discover( I hope not) that the savage and fanatic bombings in London, Madrid and Bali are the reaction of the fanatic group which feels that the entire world must fall under the rule of Allah and the Caliphate.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 05:56 am
BernardR wrote:
The Palestinians are irrational people. All that Israel wants is to be left alone. The militant Fascist Islamists, who represent only a small part of Islam, cannot abide Israel because they are not Muslims and the Hezbollah lives only to try to destroy Israel.

The rest of the world may discover( I hope not) that the savage and fanatic bombings in London, Madrid and Bali are the reaction of the fanatic group which feels that the entire world must fall under the rule of Allah and the Caliphate.


I am hopeful that the fear after 9/11 which caused these extreme views to be so prevalent as to become mainstream will soon give way after having witnessed our own extremism in action since.
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BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 03:18 am
Dear lady- I read your post and all I can say is "huh"? I really don't understand your convoluted sentence.Could you enlarge on that a bit?
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 08:47 am
BernardR wrote:
Dear lady- I read your post and all I can say is "huh"? I really don't understand your convoluted sentence.Could you enlarge on that a bit?


After 9/11 the nation became so afraid that mainstream Americans put away logical thinking and just blamed all Muslims and Arabs for attacking us. The Bush administration took advantage of that fear and now we are seeing the results of extreme logic put into action. We see it in Iraq where we invaded a country on trumped reasons and the American people let them because of fear. We see it in the loss of our freedoms such as wiretapping and the patriot act and so forth. By and large, the American people are allowing it because of fear. We have seen it in the abuse and torture of detainees put in our custody and largely sanctioned by the American people; again because of fear. Now the American people seem to be willing to let Israel destroy hundreds of innocent civilians and destroy a whole. They just seem to not care if civilians get killed and they seem bent on destroying the whole country. It is just overkill and barbaric the way they are conducting this war. You would think more people would be denouncing it in the US. Have we grown so callus and hate filled?

I honestly don't think this would have been accepted before 9/11. Or maybe I am being naive; but I keep hoping the pendulum will change soon after watching the Bush administration and the extremist right wingers do it their way in Washington for a while.

The Palestinians are not irrational people. They're desperate people who have resorted to desperate measures because they have no other choice. They are stuck with the leftovers of Israel and told to be happy about it.

Perhaps the view you expressed about the Palestinians is not a view which became mainstream after 9/11. Sadly a lot of Americans have always felt as you and a lot of people do.

On the whole, never mind; I think that I am wasting my time and yours by trying to explain why I feel the way I do.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 09:04 am
Good post, nevertheless, revel.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 09:54 am
revel,

You said...

Quote:
It is just overkill and barbaric the way they are conducting this war. You would think more people would be denouncing it in the US. Have we grown so callus and hate filled?


You have no understanding of how war is fought.

When Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor,they killed about 3000 Americans and brought us into the war.
In total, approx 93,000 US soldiers died or were casualties in the Pacific,while over 1,000,000 Japanese soldiers died.

We did not respond with a proportionate response,we totally destroyed the Japanese military,and destroyed their home islands.

In war,you win by killing and destroying more of the enemy then they do of you.

When Hezbollah kidnaps 2 Israeli soldiers,and then demands the release of hundreds of Isralei prisoners in return for those 2 soldiers,is that proportionate?

As long as Hezbollah believes in and calls for the complete and total destruction of Israel,then the Isralei's are perfectly within their rights to destroy them.

Why are you not upset at the fact that Hezbollah is using private homes to launch rockets,or the fact that they are hiding in civilian areas?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:18 am
Mysteryman, you probably get your news from one source and I get mine from another. My news source says that Hazballah does not hide in civilian areas, but rather they remain away from the population so they are not betrayed to the Israelis.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index_np.html

I imagine that you don't believe that, ok.

I am not going to get into a History debate with you to justify the Israelis killing civilians and destroying a whole country. We hopefully have evolved into a more civilized society now. We have the Geneva Convention and International Laws that governs such things as bombing in populated areas. The Lebanese people are innocent and they do not deserve what is happening to them. The Lebanese people are not Hazabollah. The Lebanese civilians are not the enemy of Israel.

Israeli attacks stall aid efforts in Lebanon



I believe that Blueflame has already got into the discussion about the prisoner situation between both countries. Perhaps the reason they demand more prisoners is because they have more prisoners to be returned.

Where is your proof that they are using private civilian homes to launch rockets? I doubt you have it or if you do it will be a source favorable to your view. (I do the same)

I seriously doubt that Hezbollah expects to have complete and total destruction of Israel. I am not versed in what they're goals are, but I imagine they know they have little hope of destroying Israel with all Israel weaponry and US backing.

When Hezbollah fires rockets with no thought on who it is going to kill, that is wrong and a war crime according to the GC. When Israel endangers civilians by airstrikes with no thought of the civilians that is a war crime. It is all wrong. The thing is that Israel has more weapons and better weapons and they are killing and maiming tons more than Hazbollah is killing and maiming, not to mention Israel is totally destroying the whole country of Lebanon, that is wrong; in my opinion. You may have you own opinion.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:39 am
naive
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
 

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