War isn't sane. The objective is to reduce their ability to create nukes.
We already have probably a couple of hundred strategic sites, planned for destruction in Iran.
We have launching pads all over the world. There's no need to build up anything in Iraq.
We've done this before without building anything up. The Kaddafi bombing, the Carter debacle in Iran, ...
It's not a long term program, it's a strike.
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come
to believe ... "
Your mantra, I'm sure.
There's no need to shout or quote from second sources, f4f:
the article is for more than 12 hours
online on the WaPo website and can be read about as long in the Washington Post's printed version (on page A01 and - the Israel context - on page A 18:
Hersh: Our Military Is ?Very Loyal to the President, But They're Getting to the Edge'
This morning on CNN, New Yorker journalist Seymour Hersh addressed the uproar at the highest levels of the U.S. military over plans to launch a massive strike against Iran that would include nuclear weapons:
What I'm writing here is that if this [plan to use nukes] isn't removed ? and I say this very seriously, I've been around this town for 40 years ? some senior officers are prepared to resign. They're that upset about the fact that this plan is kept in. ... [O]ne thing about our military, they're very loyal to the president, but they're getting to the edge. They're getting to the edge with not only Rumsfeld, but with Cheney and the President.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/09/hersh-military/
It looks like if we do decide to strike Iran, we won't have Britian on our side this time.
U.S. Aims to Dampen Talk of Striking Iran
Quote:Britain's foreign secretary called the idea of a nuclear strike "completely nuts."
Dan Bartlett, counselor to Bush, cautioned against reading too much into administration planning.
"The president's priority is to find a diplomatic solution to a problem the entire world recognizes," Bartlett told The Associated Press on Sunday. "And those who are drawing broad, definitive conclusions based on normal defense and intelligence planning, are ill-informed and are not knowledgeable of the administration's thinking on Iran."
Experts say a military strike on Iran would be risky and complicated. U.S. forces already are preoccupied with Iraq and Afghanistan, and an attack against Iran could inflame U.S. problems in the Muslim world.
British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, in an interview with the British Broadcasting Corp., said Britain would not launch a pre-emptive strike on Iran and he was as "certain as he could be" that neither would the U.S. He said he has a high suspicion that Iran is developing a civil nuclear capability which in turn could be used for nuclear weapons, but there is "no smoking gun" to prove it and justify military action.
"I understand people's frustration with the diplomatic process," Straw said. "It takes a long time and is quite a subtle process. The reason why we're opposed to military action is because it's an infinitely worse option and there's no justification for it."
The U.N. Security Council has demanded Iran suspend its uranium enrichment program. But Iran has so far refused to halt its nuclear activity, saying the small-scale enrichment project was strictly for research and not for development of nuclear weapons.
Bush has said Iran may pose the greatest challenge to the United States of any other country in the world. And while he has stressed that diplomacy is always preferable, he has defended his administration's strike-first policy against terrorists and other enemies.
"The threat from Iran is, of course, their stated objective to destroy our strong ally Israel," the president said last month in Cleveland. "That's a threat, a serious threat. It's a threat to world peace; it's a threat, in essence, to a strong alliance. I made it clear, I'll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally."
Vice President Dick Cheney told the pro-Israel lobbying group AIPAC last month, "The United States is keeping all options on the table in addressing the irresponsible conduct of the regime. And we join other nations in sending that regime a clear message: We will not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon."
If the US does strike it will be, in all likelyhood, a conventional strike much like the one the US perpetrated in Iraq, Operation Desert Fox, in December, 1998. The military may, however, want to test it's new nuclear weapons systems in these strikes if they are actually ordered.
In Desert Fox B-1's were deployed from Sheik Isa Airfield in Bahrain, B-52's were deployed from Diego Garica in the Indian Ocean, and smaller attack aircraft were deployed from Ahmed Al Jaber Air Base in Kuwait, and from the aircraft carriers USS Enterprise, and USS Carl Vinson.
Conventional air and sea launched cruise missiles were were also employed.
I don't know how open Bahrain and Kuwait would be to hosting air attacks on Iran from their soil, seeing as how the situations between Iraq in 1998, and Iran in the present are starkly different in regard to Bahrain's and Kuwait's own ends. Britain, as has been reported may be against nuclear airstrikes, so Diego Garcia, a British possession, may not be available to the US military.
Nothing like diverting attention from White House incompetence and skulduggery.
revel wrote:It looks like if we do decide to strike Iran, we won't have Britian on our side this time.
Right, such was mentioned in the
British Sunday press.
Sorry Walter, I missed your link. In any casse it bears repeating in my opinion. I don't think we can just decide to strike Iran without support from anyone else and just expect the rest of the world to be grateful that we at least have done something.
Quote:The Wrap: A worm's eye view
Monday April 10, 2006
Andrew Brown has made a bet he wants to lose
I have a bet of ten pounds on with my wife - struck about a month ago - that the Americans will have bombed Iran before Boxing Day this year. It seems a silly bet to have on the first nuclear war since 1945, but right now I can't think of a better one. I certainly can't think of any way to stop the war happening.
Until now, my suspicions have been ill-formed, and based on two things: the fact that the Daily Telegraph, which is close to the Bush regime in matters of foreign policy, believes that this may happen, and the rather more obvious fact that almost everyone can see it would be a monumental disaster to bomb Iran, so it must be almost irresistible to the White House that brought us the new democratic Iraq.
But there is a long and thoughtful article by Seymour Hersh in the latest New Yorker that gives form and substance to these apprehensions. He is, of course, one of the greatest investigative reporters of our age, and his sources in the American government are matchless. He claims that very serious consideration is being given to a bombing campaign to destroy Iran's nuclear sites. What's more, the methods used for selling the project have an eerily familiar ring.
"In recent weeks, the president has quietly initiated a series of talks on plans for Iran with a few key senators and members of Congress, including at least one Democrat. A senior member of the House Appropriations Committee, who did not take part in the meetings but has discussed their content with his colleagues, told me that there had been 'no formal briefings,' because 'they're reluctant to brief the minority. They're doing the Senate, somewhat selectively.'
"The House member said that no one in the meetings 'is really objecting' to the talk of war. 'The people they're briefing are the same ones who led the charge on Iraq. At most, questions are raised: How are you going to hit all the sites at once? How are you going to get deep enough?' (Iran is building facilities underground.) 'There's no pressure from Congress' not to take military action, the House member added. 'The only political pressure is from the guys who want to do it'."
The answer to the question, "How do you get deep enough?" is that you have to use nuclear weapons. Even these may not be enough, but the Americans believe that one of the most important Iranian nuclear facilities is too deep to be damaged by conventional weapons, and anyone who would even consider using nuclear weapons is not going to suppose they won't be powerful enough.
For a whole range of moral, practical, and even patriotic reasons I think that bombing Iran is a terrible idea, which only criminal lunatics could entertain. These reflections give me no confidence that Hersh is wrong. Criminal lunacy is an accurate shorthand for a lot of the Bush government's actions. In any case, perhaps something like this threat is implicit in the logic of nuclear weapons.
When, after all, can it ever be justified to use a nuclear bomb? What are these hugely expensive, hugely destructive things good for? They are certainly effective as a deterrent against other nuclear-armed states, but it is in the nature of an effective deterrent that it is never used. Just before the start of the Iraqi war, the Israelis refitted their own equivalent of a Polaris submarine, but if it is ever used to retaliate against a nuclear attack on Israel it will have failed.
No, the only effective use of a nuclear weapon must be as a first strike, against an opponent who cannot strike back. They deliver the annihilating blow that conventional bombs can only promise - but only so long as they are unopposed. Once your opponent has the weapons, there is no guarantee that he will not use them back, and no gain that would justify the pain that this would inflict on you.
In this light, the lasting argument against bombing Iran is that one way or another, some year or another, someone will build a device and deliver it against America or Britain.
The Americans planning to attack Iran see their grip on the Persian Gulf and its oil slipping. They know they are losing a war in Iraq despite an overwhelming superiority in wealth and technology over their enemies - though it's pretty clear that they don't know why they are losing. They believe that their empire is destined, perhaps by God's favour, to run the world forever if they work to their strengths. If Iran does develop nuclear weapons, it will be impossible to bully, just as North Korea already is. And Iran, too, is a country run by criminal lunatics. What better opportunity could there be to use a bomb?
This may be the easiest ten pounds I have ever made, as well as the most expensive.
* Andrew Brown maintains a weblog, the Helmintholog.
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My first, knee jerk reaction was that the New Yorker's information smells like a deliberate leak intended to put pressure on Iran. My second reaction was that I had a similar first reaction when Bush began to rattle his sabers about Iraq. This is not good.
I agree Thomas. I just now read the article in the New Yorker. It's scary stuff.
Whereas i consider your trepidation justified, Thomas, it is well to consider that now we have the example of the rush to war in Iraq, when the subject of Iran comes up. Prior to March, 2003, the people of the United States in general had no compelling evidence to believe that this administration would rush to war on a flimsy pretext and without due consideration of the consequences.
That is no longer true.
I am 100% sure we have many plans on how to attack Iran.
However, I see no reason at this time to attack as they pose no clear and present danger to the US.
woiyo wrote:I am 100% sure we have many plans on how to attack Iran.
However, I see no reason at this time to attack as they pose no clear and present danger to the US.
If you aren't President Bush (who knows?), woiyo, let's hope so.
In 415 BC, the Athenians emptied their treasury to fund an ambitious attempt to aid an ally and strike a blow at their mortal foe, Sparta, at the same time. Through incompetence and misadventure, this bold scheme came to disaster with the ensuing loss of the Athenian army and fleet. It was a blow from which Athens never truly recovered and which led eventually to their capitulation to Sparta some years later.
On April 30 1970, Richard Nixon announced the invasion of Cambodia in order to deprive the Viet Cong of sanctuary and supply depots. Nixon's previous policy of "Vietnamization" had promised to replace US soldiers with newly trained South Vietnamese troops (sound familiar?). Unfortunately for the US war effort, the North Vietnamese had already moved the bulk of their men and material away from the border areas. The unintended consequence of this action was to bolster the Khmer Rouge and lead to the downfall of the anti-communist Lon Nol regime, but only after the expenditure of millions in US aid, including bombing missions and airstrikes, and logistical support. Ultimately, the US missions in both Vietnam and Cambodia ended in disaster and utter failure.
And now we have this sort of nonsense, yet another example of the failure to understand and learn from history.
The march of folly continues....
Miss Barbara Tuchmann's book, The March of Folly, is very instructive and entertaining, and has a good, long look at Johnson and MacNamara.
blacksmithn wrote:And now we have this sort of nonsense, yet another example of the failure to understand and learn from history.
The march of folly continues....
Do you believe it would be wise to allow Iran, a state-sponsor of islamic terrorism, to acquire nuclear weapons?
One wonders why anyone would suppose that, short of a full-scale invasion, and a continuing occupation, we would be able to stop them.