50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 May, 2006 09:38 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
If somebody knows how to copy and post that kind of graphic and would do so, it would be appreciated.


Thanks for the link. I like the Rasmussen polls because of his tendency to release the party ID data. Some others do, too, but sometimes one has to dig for it.

I know how to copy and post that graph, but my way involves so many steps and would take so much time, I'm sure you'd give up about half-way and just click the link LOL. I'm sure there are experts here that will be along shortly to clue us in on a simple way to do it Smile
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 May, 2006 09:43 pm
Heh, there is no simple way to cut and paste a graph like that. I've no doubt that Rasmussen knows this, and does it on purpose.

Though, if anyone would know how, I would say it would be Nimh.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 03:07 pm
Apart from increased crime, depressed wages, decreased revenues due to illegal payment of wages, creation of a sub society unassimilated into the general population, and extra strains on social services to accommodate the illegals in America, the following essay I think pretty well sums up the big picture for Mexico in the illegal immigration problem:

May 11, 2006
Mexico's Addiction to Remittances from Illegals In U.S.
By Victor Davis Hanson

Economists have long pointed out that relying on oil as a natural resource can be a long-term disaster for a developing nation. The income from exporting petroleum provides cash infusions that can distort a country's economy and mask structural problems while impeding reform. Petrodollars act like a lethal narcotic: A formerly impoverished country depends on short-term relief from oil profits at the risk of being reduced to an enfeebled addict.

Easy oil income also often promotes dictatorial government by allowing nationalist thugs to buy pricey weapons to threaten neighbors or to buy off internal dissent with lavish cash subsidies. Take away oil from Venezuela and Hugo Chavez would be just another failed Castro. Evo Morales is able to offer the old bankrupt socialism to poverty-stricken Bolivia largely due to the country's natural gas reserves.

Mexico also suffers from this unhealthy oil-exporting syndrome, as the government uses profits from its inefficient state-run industry to spread around subsidies in lieu of enacting long overdue wealth-creating measures. But worse still, Mexico suffers a double whammy by also receiving between $10 billion and $15 billion annually in remittances from its expatriate population in the United States.

Exporting its own poor turns out to be about the cash equivalent each day of selling on the open market about half a million barrels of $70 a barrel oil. The muscles of Mexico's former residents can prove just as deleterious as oil derricks to the long-term health of the country's economy.

Millions of unemployed Mexicans are now dependent upon money wired from the United States, where low-skill wages are now nine times higher than in Mexico. On the national level, such subsidies, like oil windfall profits, allow just enough money to hide the government's failure to promote the proper economic conditions - through the protection of property rights, tax reform, transparent investment laws, modern infrastructure, etc. - that would eventually lead to decent housing and well-paying jobs.

It may be counterintuitive to think that checks from hard-working expatriates are pernicious. But for a developing nation, remittances can prove as problematic as the proverbial plight of the lottery winner - sudden winnings that were not earned. In short, remittances, along with oil and tourism - not agriculture, engineering, education, manufacturing or finance - prop up an otherwise ailing Mexican economy. This helps explain why half of the country's 106 million citizens still live in poverty.

The billions of dollars Mexicans in the U.S. send back to their country pose another economic and ethical dilemma. Many illegal aliens in the U.S. allot nearly half their weekly paychecks to relatives in Mexico. But such deductions come right out of the workers' food, housing and transportation budgets here. So to survive, illegal aliens in the U.S. must endure cheap, substandard and often overcrowded housing. They cannot easily purchase their own health care or invest in safe and reliable cars.

Because the United States is a caring nation, the state often intervenes to offer illegal aliens costly entitlements - emergency-room medicine, legal help and subsidized housing and food - that provide some sort of parity to all its residents.

And when aliens are often paid in cash - that is off the books - the problem of remittances only worsens: The beneficiary Mexico still gets help from workers' pay, while the benefactor United States does not collect taxes.

Along with the lack of English, illegal status and insufficient education, remittances explain the poverty of many Mexican aliens in the U.S. In the American Southwest, it is now possible to see apartheid communities of Mexican nationals whose standard of living does not meet national norms.

Americans are often blamed for such disparities, as we saw in the recent immigration protests. But the tragedy is more complicated than the failure to offer workers sufficient compensation - especially when such communities are often the recipients of millions in federal dollars to improve schools, roads and police forces that cannot be maintained through customary taxation of local residents.

It might be cruel should remittances somehow come to an end. But it may be even crueler in the long run not to deal with a broken system that facilities such massive transfers - both for millions here in dire need of retaining all their earnings, and millions more in Mexico in more dire need of vast structural reform.

Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and author, most recently, of "A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War." You can reach him by e-mailing [email protected].
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 03:10 pm
Fox, Have you ever bought anything made in China, Sri Lanka, India, Africa, South America, Mexico, or any third world country? Think macro-economics, and you'll find some answers to your q that only addresses "illegal immigration."
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 03:28 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Fox, Have you ever bought anything made in China, Sri Lanka, India, Africa, South America, Mexico, or any third world country? Think macro-economics, and you'll find some answers to your q that only addresses "illegal immigration."


I have no problem with buying from most other countries and I certainly have no problem with them buying our stuff. I am an avid free trader. People practicing democracy, human rights, property rights, free trade and capitalism don't have a lot of their folks trying to get into the United States illegally. I favor that anywhere it is tried. It is an issue for another thread, however, and I only posted that essay to illustrate one more thing to consider in developing an immigration strategy for the United States.

This thread is about what we should do about illegal immigration.

I fail, to see any correlation between anything I've bought from China, Sri Lanka, India Africa, South America, Mexico, or any other third world country and an issue of people coming into our country illegally.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 08:24 pm
For someone as well travelled as c.i., he seems pretty ignorant of world affairs. It's almost like he's posting in baby talk.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 May, 2006 09:19 pm
cjhsa wrote:
For someone as well travelled as c.i., he seems pretty ignorant of world affairs. It's almost like he's posting in baby talk.


Yeah we all need to get ed-yoo-ma-cated like you, so we can realize important stuff like how the UN is coming to take our guns.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 12:16 am
US immigration bill impasse eases
The US Senate has reached a deal that could see the approval of a stalled bill that would grant millions of illegal immigrants the right to stay.

But the deal gives Republicans the right to make amendments that could curtail eventual immigrant benefits.

The bill would also need to be squared with laws passed in the House that call for criminalising illegal immigrants.

Pro-immigrant pressure groups have announced another demonstration in Washington next Wednesday.

'Full session days'

One of the Senate bill's key provisions is the opening of a path to eventual citizenship for about 11 million illegal immigrants.

Many Republicans in the House see the Senate bill as an amnesty to lawbreakers.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and the Democratic leader, Harry Reid, have now at least agreed on a compromise that will allow the Senate bill to return to the floor next week, with ample room for amendments to be sought.

Senators will be asked to commit "full session days", voting on amendments with a view to passage within one or two weeks.

Sen Reid said: "The assurances I have received from Sen Frist make me hopeful we can finally move forward on real comprehensive reform."

One of the bill's key supporters, Democrat Sen Ted Kennedy, said he was now confident the bill would be approved by the Senate.

Sens Frist and Reid also agreed the make-up of a committee seeking to unify the Senate and House bills.

The House bill would criminalise illegal immigrants and create a vast fence on the southern US border.

It has sparked huge street protests from immigrant groups and put the issue high on the agenda for November's mid-term elections.

Correspondents say President George W Bush must appease a large section of his Republican party that is opposed to the Senate bill in anything like its current form with sensitivity to the vote of the Hispanics - the nation's fastest growing minority.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 12:56 am
U.S. tipping Mexico to Minuteman patrols
By Sara A. Carter, Staff Writer


While Minuteman civilian patrols are keeping an eye out for illegal border crossers, the U.S. Border Patrol is keeping an eye out for Minutemen -- and telling the Mexican government where they are.
According to three documents on the Mexican Secretary of Foreign Relations Web site, the U.S. Border Patrol is to notify the Mexican government as to the location of Minutemen and other civilian border patrol groups when they participate in apprehending illegal immigrants -- and if and when violence is used against border crossers.

A U.S. Customs and Border Protection spokesman confirmed the notification process, describing it as a standard procedure meant to reassure the Mexican government that migrants' rights are being observed.

"It's not a secret where the Minuteman volunteers are going to be," Mario Martinez said Monday.

"This ... simply makes two basic statements -- that we will not allow any lawlessness of any type, and that if an alien is encountered by a Minuteman or arrested by the Minuteman, then we will allow that government to interview the person."

cont: http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3799653
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 01:39 am
Heres the Mexican governments website instructing "Illegal Aleins" all the locations and operations of the Minutmen.

http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte3.htm#1

Where did they get the information? The federal Government! :lol:Bush

Just listen to amigo. And you might learn some REAL politics.

Viva le Free Market......The labour market that is.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 12:56 pm
In the border states, most citizens have a very favorable view of the Minutemen, and I personally think President Bush is wrong to verbally oppose them.

In today's AOL straw poll, the voting as of a few minutes ago was as follows:

Should the military be used to tighten the U.S.-Mexico border? Yes 87% No 13%
Do you view illegal immigrants as a military threat? Yes 68% No 32%
Should the U.S. expand fences along the Mexican border? Yes 88% No 12%
Should illegal immigrants be given a chance at citizenship? No 67% Yes 33%

More than 50,000 people had responded at the time these results were copied--generally several hundred thousand will eventually respond to the poll which is in no way scientific, but is still constructive when you note that the President's favorables are usually lower on AOL straw polls than is indicated by national polls done scientifically.

Again, among U.S. citizens, the issue does not seem to fall along partisan lines at all, but it is an issue that is not going away anytime in the immediate future.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 01:07 pm
Along these same lines, the following is a sidebar to an AP story featured in AOL news today. There is no way to link to AOL however.

Quote:
AVONDALE, Ariz. (May 12) --Following a week of tough talk, a 250-member sheriff's posse that was assembled to catch illegal immigrants made just one arrest in its first desert search early Thursday.

The posse -- made up of Maricopa County sheriff's deputies and trained volunteers -- launched night patrols Wednesday in the desert and along major roads southwest of Phoenix.

Deputies attempted to pull over a pickup truck about 12:45 a.m. Thursday, but the truck took off in the desert and its 15 to 20 occupants scattered. Only one person was tracked down, despite night-vision equipment, spotlights and a helicopter.

"It just makes me angry," Sheriff Joe Arpaio said. "People say these are helpless people coming into the United States just to work, and yet when they see law enforcement, they run. If they were trying to obey the law, why are they running?"

Arpaio speculated that the night was slow because potential border crossers have heard about that the county is cracking down. He said the operation will continue.

Arpaio's posse is looking to arrest illegal immigrants under a new state law that allows local law enforcement to arrest and charge immigrant-smugglers with felonies. Sheriff's officials already have arrested 147 illegal immigrants and smugglers under the law.

A human-rights group is challenging County Attorney Andrew Thomas' contention that the law applies to illegal immigrants as well as immigrant smugglers.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 01:30 pm
Fox, It doesn't matter much what those polls now tell us, because congress is about to write legislation that has a good chance of passing next week. The compromise bill will not satisfy the respondents of that poll, because most of the illegals in this country will be permitted to become citizens.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 02:13 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Fox, It doesn't matter much what those polls now tell us, because congress is about to write legislation that has a good chance of passing next week. The compromise bill will not satisfy the respondents of that poll, because most of the illegals in this country will be permitted to become citizens.


The House and Senate are so far apart at this time on the most important things to do about illegal immigration, if Congress actually passes an immigration bill next week, I'll contribute $10 in your name to the charity of your choice.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 02:26 pm
Fox, You're on. Wink FYI, that's the impression I got from the article I read in this mornings newspaper - that both sides of the isle are ready to agree on a compromise bill (whatever that means).
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 May, 2006 06:04 pm
From what I hear, Bush is nodding heavily in the direction of the Republican right=wing base.

Close the borders. Let's put our troops along it....fingers to fingers, toes to toes.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/immigration

Bush mulls more Guard troops for border
Reuters - 39 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - President George W. Bush is expected to announce efforts to tighten security at the U.S.-Mexico border, possibly sending more National Guard troops, in a prime-time address on Monday, a senior Bush administration official said on Friday. Bush, locked in a test of wills with some conservatives furious at his support for legalizing some illegal immigrants, will stand firm in his support for a guest-worker program and his opposition to a mass deportation of the estimated 12 million immigrants in the country, the official said.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 May, 2006 09:24 am
It seems that those who strongly favor using the military to protect our borders cross party lines, so it can hardly be said that Bush will be catering to a right-wing base.

Our Democratic governor however proposes using the military for that purpose however as he wants the National Guard to be avialable to fight forest fires this summer.

Now which is the more appropriate use of our military? To defend the borders? Or fight forest fires?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 May, 2006 09:47 am
It depends on how one interprets "national security." Common sense usually favors a tighter border control, but many are struggling with the concept of destroying families already here.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 May, 2006 10:10 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
It depends on how one interprets "national security." Common sense usually favors a tighter border control, but many are struggling with the concept of destroying families already here.


I think everybody wants to find a solution to avoid 'destroying' anybody while avoiding the mistakes made with past amnesties that just put out the green light for more illegals to come.

But if we can believe a composite of the polls, the vast majority of Americans want the borders closed BEFORE we deal with what to do with those already here.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 May, 2006 10:43 am
Bush May Widen National Guard Patrols at Border

By Jonathan Weisman and Michael A. Fletcher
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, May 13, 2006; Page A01

President Bush will push next week for a broad overhaul of the nation's immigration laws and plans to tighten security on the borders, possibly with a wider deployment of the National Guard, White House officials said yesterday.

The officials said Bush will use a prime-time television address Monday to outline his plans and then visit the U.S.-Mexico border on Thursday to highlight the problem of illegal immigration.

Video

* Minutemen Rally on Capitol Hill

IMMIGRATION POLICY
Minutemen Assail Amnesty Idea
A relatively small but ardent group of protesters organized by the Minuteman group rallied against illegal immigration on Capitol Hill yesterday, lambasting President Bush and the U.S. Senate for considering legislation to give illegal immigrants a path to citizenship.
The Immigration Debate
IMG ALT Immigration reform proposals before Congress have sparked a nationwide political debate.

» Special Report: Full Coverage
» Map: A Widespread Issue

* Bush May Widen National Guard Patrols at Border
* IMMIGRATION POLICY:Minutemen Assail Amnesty Idea
* Immigration Deal Reached in Senate Provides Citizenship Opportunity
* Bush, GOP Congress Losing Core Supporters
* Dissonant Voices Inside the Border

More Stories
Who's Blogging?
Read what bloggers are saying about this article.

* Captain's Quarters
* BlackWednesday.org - The Start Page
* What Happened to My Country?


Full List of Blogs (20 links) »

Most Blogged About Articles
On washingtonpost.com | On the web

Save & Share

* Tag This Article


Saving options
1. Save to description:
Headline (required)
Byline
2. Save to notes (255 character max):
Blurb
3. Tag This Article

Officials say he is considering substantially increasing the presence of National Guard troops, some of whom are already deployed under state of emergency declarations in New Mexico and Arizona. Administration officials are exploring ways to allow governors to deploy troops across state lines to help seal the porous border with Mexico.

The militarization of border security would be a dramatic -- and controversial -- gesture in the ongoing political war over illegal immigration. The military has long maintained a small presence under the auspices of drug interdiction, but conservatives in Congress have been pushing for a far more visible and substantial effort.

An administration official stressed that no final decisions have been made on deploying National Guardsmen along the border.

But congressional Republicans who back Bush's call for a guest-worker program and a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants say that is precisely what they need to win over House conservatives. Otherwise, the president's stand will run headlong into a House bill, passed in December, that would make illegal immigrants felons and build hundreds of miles of fence along the Mexican border without offering avenues to legality for undocumented workers.

"I think members of the House will like what the president has to say on border security," said a senior administration official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he did not want to upstage Bush's address.

White House officials were intentionally vague on the National Guard deployment, instead emphasizing a plan to hire more contractors to fill administrative posts with the Border Patrol so more agents could be deployed to the frontiers. Pentagon officials emphasized that any military support would be limited.

"Any additional [Defense Department] support for Customs and Border Protection operations would be temporary in nature and allow CBP to recruit and train additional personnel," said military spokeswoman Cynthia O. Smith. The main responsibility for border security lies with the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency, with the military performing "a limited support role," she said.

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson (D) said he was concerned that the administration had not consulted directly with him and other governors of border states. "While the immediate deployment of troops may create a short-term fix, it creates further problems and concerns regarding our National Guard troops who may be called upon to respond to other emergencies and natural disasters," he said.

The Monday night speech, Bush's first prime-time television address since December, will come the same day the Senate takes up immigration again, more than a month after a bipartisan compromise measure collapsed amid partisan acrimony. This time, Senate leaders from both parties are confident that a bill will emerge before Memorial Day, and they are already preparing for difficult negotiations with the House.

Rallies that have brought millions of illegal immigrants and their supporters to the streets of Washington, Los Angeles, Dallas and Chicago have convinced politicians they must act, Republicans and Democrats say.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 03/18/2025 at 07:00:54